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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#181

Post by WillPostForFood »

knzhou wrote: post #166
ummwhat wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high performers.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#182

Post by asdff »

astura wrote: post #172
ummwhat wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

Only in some very limited areas. I guess private programs exist too, but your parents would have to have knowledge of them plus the time, money, and wherewithal. I am absolutely certain nothing like this was available to any kid in my schools growing up.

I'm not sure the total scope or worth really of the program in Los Angeles, but there are requirements just to apply (1), and slots at the highest scoring schools appear pretty limited (2).

It's also not an automatic thing, so a parent will have to be informed about the program and have the time to fill out the paperwork, and these schools are also at specific location, so if you live far away you might not be able to get there without difficulty and stress.

All of this puts filters on who gets to go, rather than just making space for everyone who shows interest in certain areas and puts forth effort. It also removes successful students from local schools, the proportion of academically inclined peers goes down, the proportion of bad influences goes up, and the entire school system suffers as a consequence. Ideally these programs should exist in house, expanded or contracted to fit the number of kids scoring >x% on whatever measure.

1. http://echoices.lausd.net/Magnet/MagnetGiftedCriteria

2. https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-edu-magnet-test-score...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#183

Post by madhadron »

smohare wrote: post #73
c-smile wrote: post #67

I was comparing my math books (from Soviet university, Physics and Applied Math) and my son's from Canadian university (CS). Huge difference to be honest. Canadian ones (same as in US I think) were more like belletristic texts written with the goal to give basics without too much thought needed by the reader. In contrast you cannot approach Soviet text math book without serious thinking effort. You need to overcome s…

Or perhaps the “hardcore” texts are just poorly written?

Having worked from translations and occasionally originals of some of the Russian texts, they're actually utterly marvelous.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#184

Post by pmiller2 »

sershe wrote: post #125
Endlessly wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, what do you and your peers that were feed into a well defined path so early make of it now understanding that is not how all children reach advanced skills in mathematics?

In iirc 8th grade, I've placed high in the final round of a Moscow-wide physics competition, incidentally hosted by MSU. My classmate, who placed even higher, and myself have received an invitation to enroll in the MSU-affiliated maths/physics focused school (#2, the schools in Moscow are all numbered semi arbitrarily). As far as I recall, every time I'd go to one of those competitions bulk of the people in later rou…

Well, 2 is prime, and so is 57, so it makes sense those would be math focused schools. ;) [0]

—-

[0]: https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/6358/story-of-grothe...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#185

Post by saagarjha »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #181
knzhou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

Yup, when I went through school the gifted program was cancelled at around the same time as the recession and never brought back, and students would skip a year or two in math. Now trying to skip two is much, much harder.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#186

Post by knzhou »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #181
knzhou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

These programs exist, but are generally separated from the ordinary high school system. For example, right here in the Bay area there's Proof School, a private school founded precisely "for kids who love math", AoPS Academy, for extracurricular challenging math classes, and powerhouse public schools like Lynbrook, where gigantic student-run clubs aimed at competitions provide exactly this kind of education.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#187

Post by saagarjha »

jrs95 wrote: post #173
ummwhat wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

AP classes aren't really close to the same in my experience. They may technically be on par with entry level college courses but none of the content is so difficult than anyone else couldn't do it. If anything we just have low expectations and do very little to foster any critical thinking skills in most students. You could be below average in terms of natural ability and not have a problem with AP classes just by ac…

I'd argue you could do the same without even trying, either. AP classes aren't really significantly more difficult than a regular class; they just have more focus on content covered on the AP exam.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#188

Post by cheez »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #181
knzhou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

High performers are starting to be home schooled, more and more.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#189

Post by saagarjha »

sdan wrote: post #141
malandrew wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a program will never happen in America again because some people will complain about privilege-this and equity-that. America is basically living Vonnegut’s Harrison Bergeron already and dooming itself to mediocrity if is doesn’t realize the damage being done and correct things. What happened with NYC’s gifted and talented programs was a perfect example of this idiocy.

When I was in elementary school probably a decade ago we all had to take a math placement test (not the standardized test, a different one) to determine what math class we'd be in middle school. Tons of privilege-this and that (this is normal in the bay area, pretty sure a lot more schools have similar systems) but at the end of the day kids (like me) studied extremely hard for these placement tests.

I'm honestly surprised that people have begun studying for that test; when I took it was fairly low-stress…

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#190

Post by p1esk »

to1y wrote: post #104
throw1234651234 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in your early, early 20s? Because the Russian education system fell apart recently. Bribes and teachers moving to Europe and all that.

I'm 28. We emigrated to Australia(from Russia) when I was in approximately grade 3-4. I basically did no mathematical study for 4-5 years, the system was that far ahead. From family in Russia I hear that ridiculous amounts of homework(2hrs daily if you're on top of everything) is still a thing for young children although there's all sorts of strange pro-putin insertions in the curriculum but ultimately I don't know,…

I'm not entirely sure where the above commenter gets their information from or if they're being entirely honest

You left Russia when you were 10, so you were basically a child. Then you "heard from family" something you've never actually experienced. On the other hand, I was there in Soviet Union/Russia going through all 10 grades in three different schools, and then getting my masters in engineering, while tutoring high school students in math to make some cash. Then I tutored undergrads as a TA here in US while getting my phd.

You have very little actual experience of Russian education, and zero experience of American education, and you're questioning my honesty?

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