Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#171

Post by bo1024 » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 4:46 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #136

geomark wrote: post #32

Here is an interesting paper [1](PDF) by a Russian mathematician who has taught mathematics in Russia, USA and Brazil. He compares the "very successful usage of word problems in Russia and contradictory, inefficient and often immature treatment of word problems in USA." [1] http://toomandre.com/travel/sweden05/WP-SWEDEN-NEW.pdf

Huh. That doesn't really match my American experience at all. True, in elementary school I don't recall any word problems -- because everything was practical arithmetic through sixth grade. I think sixth grade was long division? But seventh grade was algebra, and all the Russian examples of word problems look like the stuff we got all the time, seventh grade through eleventh grade. Twelfth grade was calculus, and I s…

I don't see a conflict - what you're describing is very consistent with the paper. No problem-solving until algebra starts, then focusing on using algebra to solve 'word problems'.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#172

Post by astura » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 4:48 AM UTC

ummwhat wrote: post #91

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

Only in some very limited areas. I guess private programs exist too, but your parents would have to have knowledge of them plus the time, money, and wherewithal.

I am absolutely certain nothing like this was available to any kid in my schools growing up.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#173

Post by jrs95 » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 4:50 AM UTC

ummwhat wrote: post #91

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

AP classes aren't really close to the same in my experience. They may technically be on par with entry level college courses but none of the content is so difficult than anyone else couldn't do it. If anything we just have low expectations and do very little to foster any critical thinking skills in most students. You could be below average in terms of natural ability and not have a problem with AP classes just by actually giving a shit.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#174

Post by aks_tldr » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 4:55 AM UTC

Ah mir publications, One of my favorite book during school was elementary mathematics by them. https://www.amazon.com/Elementary-Mathematics-G-Dorofeev/dp/...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#175

Post by golergka » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 4:58 AM UTC

Endlessly wrote: post #107

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

Curious, what do you and your peers that were feed into a well defined path so early make of it now understanding that is not how all children reach advanced skills in mathematics?

Went to #548 from elementary to middle, tried to transfer to #57 but failed interviews (I think I went up to round 8), spent one year at #1523 and then successfully got into #57 the next year.

I think that I was very lucky to get in and it was the most valuable part of my overall education. It taught me many things. That there are other people who are much smarter than me and it's OK (and may be I'm not smart enough to do math as a science for a living). A lot of mathematical intuition, about very non-mathematical things, all the way to poetry. How to structure your thought, attack your own arguments and prove something - or discover that the proposition you were trying to prove was false to begin with. (Apart from state-mandated math program, we had our own, with special lessons, where we wouldn't need to calculate or find anything. The only activity was to try and prove theorems and lemmas that you didn't know the proofs of.) That despite years of experience of being a weirdo and a nerd I can finally find a social circle where I can feel normal and accepted. In fact, 15 years after graduation we still have an active Discord server where 8 people were streaming some video games and chilled in voice chat just last night.

So, I think that when you filter kids not only by some "IQ-by-proxy" tests but also by what later get the name "culture fit", and let them coexist together for a few years, it can be a very powerful and life-changing thing. Not everyone such a good experience, of course - but a lot of us did.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#176

Post by jessriedel » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 4:59 AM UTC

enjo wrote: post #169

knzhou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are now , not so much 40 years ago. Even today, a lot of the STEM enrichment programs in the US have roots in the USSR. Hell, a big fraction of the physics problems I assign when tutoring these days were written by Russians in the 80s, because they're just that good.

Anecdotal I know but I went to an entire school for “gifted” students in Texas in the 80’s.

40 years ago is 1980, so that seems consistent with his comment. Also consistent is that Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Virginia, which has been ranked #1 and is generally in the top ten US high schools, was founded in 1985.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#177

Post by TimTheTinker » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:02 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #131

I think it comes down to communism. According to Marx's book "The Machine" the end game of communism is essentially an omnibenevolent AI. Marx thought eventually all forms of labor would be mechanised into a colossal machine that would run the world. Thus, the whole point of education is to train the geniuses in math, science, and technology in order to bring about this machine god. That's, in my opinion, why there i…

That’s fascinating... and somewhat terrifying. Because it seems clear to me that it won’t require communism or totalitarianism to achieve that kind of endgame (or at least, to get really close to it).

Perhaps the communist/totalitarian/power-hungry nations of the world are sitting back and waiting for us in western nations to build such a system (think AWS, but 30 years from now). All they have to do is get complete control of it by one method or another, and then they’ve won.

One would think a proper national defense-in-depth mindset dictates carefully considering and planning for such a future.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#178

Post by Hard_Space » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:09 AM UTC

I moved to Romania three years ago, and was surprised to find the same kind of specialist/vocational high school paths have been in use a long time in this country. Once you hit teen years you might find yourself, if you worked hard enough, in one of the more prestigious specialized high school institutions for one of many subjects, such as architecture, medicine, physics or the arts.

It seemed to me a huge pressure to put on such young shoulders, to commit to a career path so early, but that's the aptitude-based system that dominated under communism. Since the schools are so prestigious, much of that system still remains.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#179

Post by _ugfj » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:09 AM UTC

hangonhn wrote: post #145

lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

Yes! I was about to say something similar about China as well. In China, and maybe other former Communist countries as well, kids with talents or what seems like talents are identified very early on and only those with such aptitudes are given the resources and put on a track to nurture those talents. Same thing with sports too! My guess is that China probably borrowed a lot from the USSR in their programs and philos…

In socialist Hungary the experience was more nuanced.

There were programs after hours for gifted students but for the first eight years normal hours you were locked in with the other animals there wasn't anything special and it was living hell. Don't think I call my young peers animals for nothing, I do not only carry the emotional scars but also the physical: more than thirty years later it's visible where one of them has bitten my shoulder at the age of 13. I ran away from the school very early once and my father practically dragged me back and I was contemplating suicide when I was 9.

Doing a lot of those after hour programs and an ungodly amount of luck and goodwill made me pass the admittance exam of the best special maths high school class in Hungary. You know those question where they ask what you would do differently in your life if you could do it again? Well, I would tell 13.5 yrs old me to do the goddamned homework for the preparation course! One of the homework questions was the entrance exam and I mostly fubbed it and as I learned much later one of the two teachers didn't want to admit me while the other saw something... It makes me shudder to think of my life if I hadn't gotten in that class...

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#180

Post by mygo » Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 5:09 AM UTC

Is following along and learning / practicing math directly from a textbook still the most effective way to learn math?

Now that we have devices in our pockets and on our desktops with more and more capabilities that have educational use cases such as interactivity and AR, how would a calculus lesson be made in 2020? Could we just go down the street, aim our devices at cars passing by, or cars speeding up from a stop sign, and see how speed, acceleration, and position relate to each other in real-time? Or aim it at a pool table, bounce a cue ball off another ball and see how vector summation can work in real life? Or input the weight of a cue ball, the type of surface (felt?) and then see how the applied force can be estimated based on how fast the cue ball moves when you hit it? Interactive bits like this as examples and practice mixed in with the text?