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What is interesting about Factorio

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Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#291
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think you will regret? Is it not something that could have been changed with more time? Or are you trying to imply you won't have any regrets... and wouldn't that make the question kind of meaningless? As for me, that depends... I might end up a lonely bitter old man who constantly/wistfully mourns the wasted potential cause of all the whishes/goals I had but never worked on. Getting away from spending th…

I think I'll regret not using more of my time to do things that bring me joy. I think I'll regret the times in my life when I was doing something other than exactly what I wanted to do that moment. I can't be sure though because at 41 I don't regret time spent working because it wasn't that bad and money earned allowed me to have a lot of fun gaming. Also I don't regret time spent with people. So I can't be sure if I…

Your life experience seems quite different from mine. When you describe someone as "doing only exactly what he wants to do in that moment", I'd imagine something quite different. A heroin addict. Someone excessively overweight. A kid never doing house-/homework. Or, well, someone playing video games excessive amounts of time.

The thing I wouldn't picture is moderation. Or awareness of long term consequences.

Again, most things that feel good are fine, as long as done in moderation. What you describe doesn't sound excessive at all, so sure, play more. Sounds like you've got the foresight to understand the trade-offs and hopefully have the willpower to not let it get out of control.

Since once it's out of control and you spend 14h/day on games and media for years straight, getting yourself back to normal can be quite hard and require external help.

> I'm pretty sure I won't regret wasted potential, because I know how unique it is to realize it in any spectacular manner.

"spectacular manner"? I feel you're overestimate my standards. It's more a case of "I justified that excessively expensive GPU in 2008 not with gaming, but wanting to do more GPU programming. So why is the best thing I've got to show for the last decade a (nearly finished) CS bachelor?".

I understand to have many years ahead of me. And all of that might leads me to a great path with a happy ending. But right now I'm certain having played less would have made such a path more likely.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#292
post #2

> It's also extremely addictive to engineers. Quite the understatement. Pretty much every engineer that I've introduced to the game has played for at least 40 hours.

Interesting. I used to play video games but now I mostly 3D print stuff and design robots for fun. I don’t think video games are a bad use of time generally, but I feel so good about doing actual engineering for fun that I’m always a little surprised with games that are supposed to be fun for engineer types. I kind of wonder why actually doing engineering for fun isn’t more popular?

Relevant Vice article: Why Do We Play Video Games That Feel Like Work? (2015)

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4x38aq/why-do-we-play-vid...

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that it's worth the money. I just dislike their attitude. If it was a perfect fit for me, I'd swallow it and get it, sure. But thruth is I'm only a very occasional puzzle gamer. So i'd probably not play it much or at all. Also, let's not overgeneralize. I'm pretty sure a lot of indie devs are effectively sweatshops too. They face much less regulatory scrutiny and people tend to forgive them easily. Exam…

> But thruth is I'm only a very occasional puzzle gamer. So i'd probably not play it much or at all. Then why should you care about what the makers of Factorio do? > Examples like Telltale and Riot tell us how ugly things can get if they grow too quickly and continue operating that way. Do Factorio developers show any sign that they're "growing too quickly"? Telltale took on dozens of contracts for games that showed…

> Then why should you care about what the makers of Factorio do?

As I said I find it very interesting how people respond to it. This whole thread is an example why. That makes it interesting. Why Factorio? Why not 'Farming Simulator'? Theres other games like this too. For example Dominions. You can't criticize that either without getting /significant/ pushback. What do Dominions and Factorio have in common. I'd say they are both very hardcore games that attract a certain audience. It reminds me of review wars when coding. trying to find every little thing to nitpick on. People really butting heads against each other for no good reason. The spite, the vindictiveness. How we all get caught up in these arguments.

> Do Factorio developers show any sign that they're "growing too quickly"? Telltale took on dozens of contracts for games that showed no sign of selling well, and Riot went public and were acquired and became Tencent's bitch. How is any of that relevant to Factorio not going on sale?

It's not... The comment I was replying to was making other assertions. I would also like to ask you to not use that word again.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#294
post #6

As someone that stopped playing games in university, I've found it weirdly hard to get back into games many years later. Factorio seems like the type of game I would've liked as a teenager, but now it just feels like work to me. As do most interesting games. It seems like there's a learning curve to games that I don't want to spend the time dealing with anymore.

Exactly the same here. Gaming time slowly tapered off during university. Anytime I have picked up a game since then it has been short lived. I'm at the point now where I won't even bother trying a new game (or revisiting an old one). I know I'll get bored of it in 30 mins, so why bother?

It feels like a lot of work picking up a new game. Combine that with the realization that it is just an engineered dopamine loop and that I could be doing something productive, videogames are essentially "dead" to me.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#295
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I'll regret not using more of my time to do things that bring me joy. I think I'll regret the times in my life when I was doing something other than exactly what I wanted to do that moment. I can't be sure though because at 41 I don't regret time spent working because it wasn't that bad and money earned allowed me to have a lot of fun gaming. Also I don't regret time spent with people. So I can't be sure if I…

Your life experience seems quite different from mine. When you describe someone as "doing only exactly what he wants to do in that moment", I'd imagine something quite different. A heroin addict. Someone excessively overweight. A kid never doing house-/homework. Or, well, someone playing video games excessive amounts of time. The thing I wouldn't picture is moderation. Or awareness of long term consequences. Again, m…

> When you describe someone as "doing only exactly what he wants to do in that moment", I'd imagine something quite different. A heroin addict.

Fair enough. But heroin addict wants to do heroin in every moment and nothing else. While in my cases it varies wildly from moment to moment. At any given moment I might want to play a game, talk to human, craft a response on stackoverflow, read about some obscure database, build a prototype in language I barely know, connect solar panel to LiFePO batteries, sculpt large ugly head out of polymer clay, read online about covid19 related research, think about how you can prove simple tautologies within axiomatic logic system, attempt to fix a bug in a program I just started using, discuss philosophical ideas with you, watch youtube video and then game some more. All of it just as useless as heroine (although less harmful), but all of it something that I wanted to do in that given moment.

> The thing I wouldn't picture is moderation.

Moderation comes from diversity of whims.

> I understand to have many years ahead of me. And all of that might leads me to a great path with a happy ending. But right now I'm certain having played less would have made such a path more likely.

I wish you all the best. When I was younger I had this urge that everything I do should ultimately give some monetary benefit. Once I felt secure with what I had materially this feeling subsided and I felt (bit aimless) freedom. Now I just want to be as happy as possible. Even if that desire has nihilism as a foundation.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#296

You know what else is interesting? Their "no sales" sales philosophy. For me its the reason never to buy it. I actually revolt when I hear their reasons. I feel like it comes down to: we are willing to hurt our options for making more profit to prevent people with lesser budgets from buying it. But its very interesting since a lot of people have the opposite reaction. They feel it is more valuable if it doesn't go on…

You can play Factorio's demo for free. There's actually quite a lot you can do in it, and it's what hooked me on the game. You might feel different about paying full price for it after you play the demo. For me, Factorio is easily worth twice or even three times the price they're charging. I've pissed away so much money on half-baked, low effort, insanely buggy games, and even "cheap" games are usually not worth the…

Well for every game thats worth thrice the money you buy four that are worth ~$0 regardless of them being objectively great games because you turn out not having fun. At least I do. I could tell you Assasins Creed Oddysea is worth thrice the money, because it is, for me. But for you possibly not so much. But maybe I'll check the demo. I wont be giving them any money by playing it. And maybe its so good that i will forgive them their antics. We'll see.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I love it. I just went back to play last night and I got my Red and Green science built in a way with zero excess. All the miners lead straight into a furnace which fed straight into an automation factory which fed straight into the Red and Green science. The only thing I used belts for was getting the sciences to the Labs. Then I unlocked the the next level of science and it all instantly became spaghetti…

"If you can get clean whole numbers for a majority of your ratios, then you have a nearly perfect automation process even if it's all spaghetti belts." Another way to go is to use robots for delivery. That way there's no spaghetti of belts because there are no belts.

The only time I've ever completed a game is when I made giant 80x80 cells served only by trains. Each cell was dedicated to a single recipe, with vertical train stations on the left for inputs, vertical train stations on the right for output, and beaconed factories in the middle.

Each cell focused on executing the recipe as fast as it needed to to fill up the output station faster than it could be drained by other cells' input trains. If something was being produced faster than other cells' trains were draining it, then it would back up and stop (and even shut off power via a switch logistic-connected to the output chest). If something was being produced slower, 80x80 is plenty of space to add more factories till it isn't.

Near the end the bottleneck was actually how fast I could ship ore from the faraway mines to the smelter cells (I built it organically so all the smelter cells ended up near the center, while the ores were coming in from the outside), but at time I was launching one rocket every few seconds so it didn't really matter.

Building it took multiple days because I only built out one or two cells a day, but the freedom from having to think about belts and ratios was worth it. I did not have to worry about prioritization because if one cell needed an output more than another cell, its trains would implicitly be coming to the output station more often. With belts you can end up with a situation where, say, the demand for green circuits is high but your iron plate bus only has two lines dedicated to the green circuits factory area, and there's no space to add more lines. With trains I would just add more factories to the green circuits cell, and its iron plate input train would automatically start running more often without me needing to do anything to it.

Unfortunately that experience has spoiled the vanilla game for me. Every time I try to play I remember how easy it made things and don't want to play any other way, but I also remember how many days it took to build and I don't want to repeat it.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#298
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's $20. For a game you will spend 100's of hours on.

The price was raised a while back to $30.[1] [1]: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/016-price-change (I purchased it for myself at the $20 price, but I've also purchased it as a gift at the $30 price. I have definitely gotten my money's worth.)

Oh OK, I too bought it years ago at $20 - but still, that $10 doesn't materially change my point.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#299
post #6

As someone that stopped playing games in university, I've found it weirdly hard to get back into games many years later. Factorio seems like the type of game I would've liked as a teenager, but now it just feels like work to me. As do most interesting games. It seems like there's a learning curve to games that I don't want to spend the time dealing with anymore.

As someone who has recently got back into games, Factorio is a ton of work—and I love strategy games like Civilization. Playing Factorio is not unlike doing engineering work itself. Initially, I was hooked. After a while, the brainpower it takes to build and refactor large factories felt too demanding. It began to feel more like work, than enjoyment.

Factorio is a game to automate things. So finally I thought that watching Factorio play on YouTube is ultimate automation.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Art and music is something you do because you want to, not because you have to.

In your philosophy, music and art do not serve a necessary function, and eventually, even liking things will be made "more efficient" by using chemicals via pills to adjust the brain chemicals until the liking is added or the desire for liking is removed.

Read my comments again. In my philosophy, we should strive to get rid of or minimize all necessary stuff, in order to free time, money and attention for pursuits of things one wants and not just needs.

So, painting stays, dusting the apartment goes.

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