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An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

kalzumeus.com

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Re: An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

#131
post #67
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One might argue that a "true count of infections" is not falsifiable -- people aren't getting tested, causes of deaths aren't properly attributed, officials are juking the stats. A more falsifiable claim is "a breakdown of provision of care in Nagoya, Osaka, and Tokyo, before the end of April". If patients are in parking lots or bodies are in refrigerated trucks and mass graves, that evidence is harder to hide. There…

Exponential growth means fully half of the present population occurred in the last growth cycle (presuming R0 ~ 2). With a mean time to symptoms of 14 days, depending on what Japan is doing, 10 days is an age (though it's worth noting that severe respiratory symptoms set in in week 3).

14 days is, I believe, the estimated 99th percentile for incubation time, not the mean.

Mean is more like 5 or 6 days.

Re: An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

#132
post #130
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt there's much overlap in people who have so little human contact that no one knows they're dead and people who catch viruses that are still present in only a tiny fraction of the population. Oh, and a third condition that these people be such recluses that they don't even call a doctor when deathly ill.

Dude, you're talking about the country that christened the hikikomori phenomenon...

There are undoubtedly recluses, but do they also have frequent contact with people to catch diseases from?

Re: An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

#133
I really appreciate this post. It's hard to read, but this seems very intentional. There are a number of salient points that are very specifically not stated. Some questions deliberately not answered:

Who was on the Working Group, other than Patrick? Dr. Tyler Cowen spread the results, but no one is mentioned as working in the group other than Patrick. This seems designed to limit potential social fallout to other parties. The whole "Someone read between the lines" section would be much easier to read with the relevant person named. Also consider that Patrick may be limiting fallout to himself here, with the bold statement early on that "I instigated the Working Group and I was the primary author of its white paper."

Did the NYT article writer correspond with the Working Group? The white paper was published with plenty of time before the article was written, and the explicit goal of the Working Group was to "leverage a news organization." Also consider that the NYT article was published on Thursday. And when discussing the goals of the working group, "This implied a publication deadline of Thursday. We assumed media organizations would need our work by Wednesday to check it and produce reporting informed by it." Note that Dr. Cowen's quick post was also published on Thursday, possibly to increase deniability when referring to that goal date.

What Japanese organizations failed to respond to this crisis? The most damning prose in the entire article is "May all judgments be just and merciful." Patrick does not identify any Japanese organization or government by name, but says that the Working Group spoke to many of them. Also, both memos are listed in the timeline immediately before a announcement by Governor Koike. Patrick even convolutes his prose to the point where he never mentions the Olympics. I wouldn't be surprised if he had another sporting event in mind that also matched the specifics of what he wrote.

How much influence did the Working Group have in Japan's response? The NYT article is definitely one potential point of influence, but it seems that the memo itself was shared widely. Consider the difference between this humble ending to the article: "I am a responsible professional. I have no relevant expertise or authority. I have avoided unproductive criticism. I might have made some guesses, during a year when many people were guessing on many topics. I quietly told some people about them. Some guesses may, perhaps by happenstance, align with official guidance and credible published reporting." and his tweet confirming the memo (option 1): "I am materially wrong about the most consequential thing I've had to have a view on in 15 years. You should probably degrade your estimate of my ability to think through complex problems."

Interpreting things through an aggressive lens, I read this as a scathing diatribe against the Japanese government, where a non-expert foreigner living in Japan has to get the Western media involved before the government would admit to there being a problem. Props to the governor of Tokyo for being more on top of this than anyone else (perhaps with the Working Group's involvement), but the national government completely dragged its feet until it was forced by international pressure to start asking real questions.

But I'm probably reading too much into it. Patrick's too humble of a guy to say all of that.

Re: An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

#134
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is uncontrolled spread in Japan, and the NYT article prompted the Japanese government to acknowledge it and begin locking the country down, and the Working Group motivated the NYT article in any significant way, he doesn't have to "act" like he's important.

Does the post claim that the NYT article was based on his work? The timing doesn't make sense unless he was working with the journalist before she published and I didn't see that claim. I would also say he's over-exaggerating the impact of the NYT article, but I don't have any more proof than he does. I've been following Japanese news and didn't really see any splash based on something in the western press. There wer…

No, it doesn't say that the NYT article was based on the work of the Working Group. It would have significantly clarified the post to say whether the NYT article writer did or did not use the memo to help inform the article.

It does say that someone "suggested that I leverage a news organization." And that "This implied a publication deadline of Thursday." Thursday happens to be the day that the NYT published their article, but it was also the day that Dr. Cowen put a blurb on Marginal Revolution.

Isn't it odd that the most critical piece of information in the article is left out? I wonder why someone worried about the fallout of an article wouldn't specify the most important piece of information that the article might contain?

> Saying that the white paper led to the NYT article which led to Japan's lockdown is incredibly western/English-centric and ignorant of the actual forces at play inside the country in their native language, press, public opinion, and organizations.

You're totally right here. Good thing that Patrick did not write or imply this. I'm very glad that its just HN commenters that think this.

Re: An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

#135
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but do you have any thoughts about the topic we were talking about before your rant?

A month ago it was obvious to Patrick that there was a great deal of untracked community spread of COVID in Japan. If the Japanese government was aware of that they would have shut the country down. In reality they only did that four days ago[1]. If they had done that a month ago there wouldn’t be such a shortage of PPE they’re calling for donations of raincoats. There are going to be thousands of excess deaths in To…

Is patio11 a certified expert? Should he be considered my better? Your better? Should we consider him the better of the actual certified experts in infectious diseases?

If not, then shouldn’t you shut up and listen to those people, who are certified as your betters when it comes to their subject matter? Even the ones who you called out as being wrong in your initial post?

I think maybe you should kick up the leg rest on your La-Z-Boy and relax into your armchair rather than attacking other posters. Unless you’re a certified expert and not just an armchair expert.

Re: An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

#136
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, you're talking about the country that christened the hikikomori phenomenon...

There are undoubtedly recluses, but do they also have frequent contact with people to catch diseases from?

You can catch covid in many ways, it lives on hard surfaces for days.

Re: An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

#137

This is just my 2 cents but according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries Japan has only done 923 tests for 1M of their population. That's much lower than any developed nation. One thing the article claims is the spread of the virus by asymptomatic infected people. Given this low level of testing - it's hard to gauge the true level of infection in the country - although the continuous decrease on…

You are correct that official coronavirus deaths are low. But official influenza deaths (blue diamonds) were almost double their baseline value (green line) and above a threshold value (purple line, but I don't know enough Japanese to know what threshold) back in week 8 of this year (late Feb, early March, depending on how you count it.)

https://www.niid.go.jp/niid/ja/flu-m/2112-idsc/jinsoku/1852-...

I wonder if there are other, non-coronavirus causes of death that are significantly above their normal values?

Re: An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

#139
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We often conflate asymptomatic and presymptomatic people: my understanding is that asymptomatic people aren't very infectious, but presymptomatic people are. I can't find a solid citation for this, though. The mechanistic basis for that is simply viral load: asymptomatic people have some virus, but not enough to ever make them really ill, whereas presymptomatic people have loads of virus, but it hasn't made them real…

With this disease it appears asymptomatic people are equally infectious.

That was very much not my understanding. Do you have a proper technical source for that? I don't, and i wish i did!

Re: An update on a pre-registered result about the coronavirus

#140
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have direct knowledge of how Japanese official process works in practice, could you relate it along with this observation? Because a thing not in much doubt on HN is that Patrick does have some significant experience with it.

Sure happy to share. I guess most people would be surprised, but Japan has very straightforward and easy immigration if you meet the right conditions, of which Patrick is a shoe-in. He probably already has permanent residency, but if not, he could either be on a work visa or a spousal visa. None of those are going to get rejected because he did some amateur pandemic modeling. Assuming someone at immigration would tak…

I cofounded a company with Patrick several years ago and have known him for a long time, and in that entire time he has lived full time in Japan. I don't know the particulars of his immigration situation, but if I had to hazard a guess, yes, he's a PR.

I don't know anything in particular about his concerns about his own status. I have, on the other hand, known many LPRs in the US who were extraordinarily careful about their engagement in public matters out of concern about their status.

If your argument is that protection for PRs in Japan is stronger than that of US LPRs, I'm going to go ahead and call that an extraordinary claim. At some point, though, probably rapidly approaching, litigating this point becomes ghoulish. I haven't heard Patrick say he's specifically concerned about his own status, but he's clearly concerned about some of the people he worked with.

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