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You can’t prove I meant X

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31–40 of 133 posts

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#31
post #4

> "this sentence could mean y as well as x so you can’t prove I meant x" It's interesting that a lot of online debate and media commentary uses the opposite technique: > "this sentence could—with varying degrees of plausibility—mean bad thing y as well as good thing x, so you can't prove you didn't really mean to say the bad thing." The principle of anti-charity.

And of course whether charity is applied or not is all about the presumed social fault lines in the situation. For example, in the U.S. right now, if you say, "The expert predictions about the coronavirus are all over the place and changing every day," it's an uncontroversial statement when everyone's politics are assumed to be the same. Among liberals, it will be interpreted as meaning that the coronavirus is extremely dangerous and not fully understood and we need to play it safe. Among conservatives, it will be interpreted as undermining expert authority and casting doubt on social distancing. In a mixed group, though, the important aspect will not be the meaning, which nobody will bother thinking too hard about; the only thing that matters will be the presumed intent to precipitate an argument.

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#32
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this retort is that of course it is okay to be white, and the details of such a campaign are what make all the difference. But the person who isn't already with you on this will just ask "how is it not ok to be white?"

Yeah. it takes like 20 minutes to communicate the context and how this isn't so innocuous as it looks. I've had to explain this to my aging boomer parents, and they still don't buy it. It is truly a subversive phrase because it takes control of the argument from a place that requires, IMO, a lot of basics to be explained and/or challenged... which most people don't want to sit through. It's like a self-generating min…

I don't think you can construct "It's okay to be white" as something wrong, because it's just inherently correct. It worries me, that you even try to find something wrong the the slogan.

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#33
post #30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you are being disingenuous or you have a very naive understanding of the quote. I could just as easily say: "work sets you free" doesn't sound so unreasonable! How could anyone take issue with that?!

That work sets you free is an unsubstantiated claim. I'm working and I don't think that this set me free. On the contrary, I think it's pretty shackling. What would be a not naive understanding of the quote? I think it is reasonable to want a future for your own children. How are we living in a world where this is controversial?

You can't be this naive?

Please search for "arbeit macht frei" and get back to us.

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#34
post #15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever since I've looked up what the fourteen words are, I'm both struggling to understand why they are controversial and associated with the far right. They seem pretty reasonable and on par with the "It's okay to be white" campaign.

Well assuming you looked it up, clicked on the first Google result, and read Fourteen Words, 14, or 14/88, is a reference to the fourteen-word slogan "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children, "[1] or the less commonly used "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth."[2] The slogans were originally coined by white supremacist David Lane,[3] a founding…

[deleted]

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#35
post #24
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well assuming you looked it up, clicked on the first Google result, and read Fourteen Words, 14, or 14/88, is a reference to the fourteen-word slogan "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children, "[1] or the less commonly used "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth."[2] The slogans were originally coined by white supremacist David Lane,[3] a founding…

[flagged]

I think context is the important thing here. Taken out of context, the quote is reasonable. I had never heard of this but if you replace "white" with "black" it seems pretty acceptable right?

In context it sort of means repress and kill everyone else though.

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#36
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this retort is that of course it is okay to be white, and the details of such a campaign are what make all the difference. But the person who isn't already with you on this will just ask "how is it not ok to be white?"

Yeah. it takes like 20 minutes to communicate the context and how this isn't so innocuous as it looks. I've had to explain this to my aging boomer parents, and they still don't buy it. It is truly a subversive phrase because it takes control of the argument from a place that requires, IMO, a lot of basics to be explained and/or challenged... which most people don't want to sit through. It's like a self-generating min…

I’m curious, what is that context? ...why is it “problematic” for an underrepresented group (such as in Harvard admissions), to rally around a claim it’s okay to be them?

Have you ever considered that if you need to do a lot of explaining, and not even your own parents follow your logic, but the other person can persuasively summarize their argument... you might just be wrong?

A question for people downvoting:

Do you think I’m wrong or do you just not like what I’m saying?

It seems easy to correct me about the Harvard admissions point, if I’m just factually mistaken.

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#37
post #9
post #7

Two modern equivalents of this kind of thing are the use of euphemisms to bypass Chinese censorship: https://chinadigitaltimes.net/space/Main_Page and the ever-mutating set of "dog whistles" used by the far right ("fourteen words" etc.) The historical background of the 1700s I'm a bit vague on, but it was crucial for the development of Parliamentary government in the UK through a long series of succession crises from…

Ever since I've looked up what the fourteen words are, I'm both struggling to understand why they are controversial and associated with the far right. They seem pretty reasonable and on par with the "It's okay to be white" campaign.

Wow white nationalism apologism on HN. At least it's being downvoted quickly.

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#38
post #9
post #7

Two modern equivalents of this kind of thing are the use of euphemisms to bypass Chinese censorship: https://chinadigitaltimes.net/space/Main_Page and the ever-mutating set of "dog whistles" used by the far right ("fourteen words" etc.) The historical background of the 1700s I'm a bit vague on, but it was crucial for the development of Parliamentary government in the UK through a long series of succession crises from…

Ever since I've looked up what the fourteen words are, I'm both struggling to understand why they are controversial and associated with the far right. They seem pretty reasonable and on par with the "It's okay to be white" campaign.

It's not the statement's literal meaning (though that's plenty distasteful on its own), it's the use of a symbol for a philosophy that views social dynamics in the US as a zero-sum struggle between fundamentally distinct "whites" and "non-whites", which is itself just a restatement of reconstruction-era segregationist philosophy, used by the same demographics for largely the same semantic purposes.

It's yucky. It literally took us a century to kill that as policy, and that it survives as meme is deeply shameful.

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#39
post #31
post #4

> "this sentence could mean y as well as x so you can’t prove I meant x" It's interesting that a lot of online debate and media commentary uses the opposite technique: > "this sentence could—with varying degrees of plausibility—mean bad thing y as well as good thing x, so you can't prove you didn't really mean to say the bad thing." The principle of anti-charity.

And of course whether charity is applied or not is all about the presumed social fault lines in the situation. For example, in the U.S. right now, if you say, "The expert predictions about the coronavirus are all over the place and changing every day," it's an uncontroversial statement when everyone's politics are assumed to be the same. Among liberals, it will be interpreted as meaning that the coronavirus is extrem…

This is why anything partisan or partisan-adjacent in the US, which includes most current "news" events of any kind, has become so supremely boring to me.

It's literally no longer about what is factual or not, or what is actually being said, simply what it it assumed that someone is attempting to imply.

It's a terrible situation, and one that has infected a lot of other areas of USian everyday communication: https://sneak.berlin/20191201/american-communication/

If you're not fluent in euphemism and current-events context, making a plain factual statement can frequently be heard/interpreted by the listener as you saying the opposite, and the listener is usually totally unaware of the fact that they're flipping things around like this.

It's one thing when I'm acting like like the beep boop robot I am, but it's leaked out and over, into just plain speech.

Re: You can’t prove I meant X

#40
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever since I've looked up what the fourteen words are, I'm both struggling to understand why they are controversial and associated with the far right. They seem pretty reasonable and on par with the "It's okay to be white" campaign.

Wow white nationalism apologism on HN. At least it's being downvoted quickly.

Shut it down!
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