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A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

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11–20 of 35 posts

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#11
Is there any evidence of this common claim that obscure languages "may contain some of the most critical solutions to the problems we face as humans"? What kind of problems is he talking about there? Has it ever happened before?

So what that a monkey is a "lice hunter"? In English, an anteater is an anteater and a wood splitter is a wood splitter. It's not a very special way of naming things. Maybe this language has no value to anyone except its own users, but they already speak it, so no effort is needed.

These activists always have a dark intention in their ideas that they want some poor indigenous people to be burdened with the work of learning and using a dying language. If young Ojibwe people are choosing not to use it, then maybe it's because they don't want or need it. I also didn't learn much Morse code as a kid despite older people wanting me to. Turns out it's no longer as useful as it was back in their day.

"Language, Treuer says, defines nations, connects generations and allows a culture to express its perspective on the world." Yes, and English does that job much better because you can actually communicate with the world and multiple generations. Different cultures do alter it with local slang or styles of speech and it's still intelligible while also defining their identity.

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#12
post #11

Is there any evidence of this common claim that obscure languages "may contain some of the most critical solutions to the problems we face as humans"? What kind of problems is he talking about there? Has it ever happened before? So what that a monkey is a "lice hunter"? In English, an anteater is an anteater and a wood splitter is a wood splitter. It's not a very special way of naming things. Maybe this language has…

No. It is kind of sad when a language dies, but for the individuals that might have once spoken that obscure language they are now instead speaking a more common language that opens up a much large world for them.

They have a much greater chance of contributing to humanity if they have access to all that a common language provides.

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#13

The part of Northern Ontario where I grew up is part of the Ojibwe nation. The most impressive thing about the nation to me is how inhospitable the region is. The winter where I'm from typically lasts about 8 months, it snowed a few days ago. The area wasn't really permanently inhabited by white people until well after industrialization. I couldn't imagine living there without shipping or heating infrastructure. It's…

Thunder Bay? I'm from New Liskeard.

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#14
post #11

Is there any evidence of this common claim that obscure languages "may contain some of the most critical solutions to the problems we face as humans"? What kind of problems is he talking about there? Has it ever happened before? So what that a monkey is a "lice hunter"? In English, an anteater is an anteater and a wood splitter is a wood splitter. It's not a very special way of naming things. Maybe this language has…

Is there any evidence of this common claim that obscure languages "may contain some of the most critical solutions to the problems we face as humans"? What kind of problems is he talking about there? Has it ever happened before?

Does it need to? If a language interest a community, then it's reason enough to learn it.

Anyway, if you're a deaf person, a sign language is going to be a hell lot more useful than a spoken language, since the deaf can effectively communicate in say...ASL, as opposed to spoken English. They do still need to learn English, if only to interact with the larger community.

And ASL is interesting because you can some ideas communicate ideas more effectively than you could do through spoken words. ASL has a lot of opportunity for iconicity.

I learned it because I am curious about the language with no practical application in mind, but hopefully one day in the future, I will use it to communicate with the deaf and that will be one of the coolest way I will ever help a person.

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#15
post #14
post #11

Is there any evidence of this common claim that obscure languages "may contain some of the most critical solutions to the problems we face as humans"? What kind of problems is he talking about there? Has it ever happened before? So what that a monkey is a "lice hunter"? In English, an anteater is an anteater and a wood splitter is a wood splitter. It's not a very special way of naming things. Maybe this language has…

Is there any evidence of this common claim that obscure languages "may contain some of the most critical solutions to the problems we face as humans"? What kind of problems is he talking about there? Has it ever happened before? Does it need to? If a language interest a community, then it's reason enough to learn it. Anyway, if you're a deaf person, a sign language is going to be a hell lot more useful than a spoken…

> Does it need to? If a language interest a community, then it's reason enough to learn it.

I've nothing against people voluntarily choosing to learn a language. But most language learning is done by children who are heavily pressured if not outright forced into it by their parents (who usually, hypocritically, do not put the same time into language learning themselves). That's cruel in my book.

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#16
post #11

Is there any evidence of this common claim that obscure languages "may contain some of the most critical solutions to the problems we face as humans"? What kind of problems is he talking about there? Has it ever happened before? So what that a monkey is a "lice hunter"? In English, an anteater is an anteater and a wood splitter is a wood splitter. It's not a very special way of naming things. Maybe this language has…

The first point does seem to be a bit of a thing in the direction of noble savage/naturalistic fallacy, in the way that appeals to stop Amazon deforestation on the basis of hidden uncovered local plants might prove to be miracle drugs that will safe humanity are overselling wonders previously unharmed by the modern world.

That said, the preservation of endangered languages is definitely in of itself a valuable and noble pursuit of knowledge. It preserves our understanding of the past, at the very least. And for something more groundbreaking, there is the whole matter of the Pirahã:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8772388

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=740687

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#17
post #11

Is there any evidence of this common claim that obscure languages "may contain some of the most critical solutions to the problems we face as humans"? What kind of problems is he talking about there? Has it ever happened before? So what that a monkey is a "lice hunter"? In English, an anteater is an anteater and a wood splitter is a wood splitter. It's not a very special way of naming things. Maybe this language has…

>These activists always have a dark intention in their ideas that they want some poor indigenous people to be burdened with the work of learning and using a dying language.

Learning multiple languages has been shown to provide many benefits to a child's wellbeing, though I don't see anyone forcing anybody to learn or use the language.

>If young Ojibwe people are choosing not to use it, then maybe it's because they don't want or need it.

Kids stopped using it because they are shipped to residential schools that used to punished use of their nativity language. There was no "choice" offered.

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#18
post #3

1) I was unable to get past the popups to read the article until I tried opening the link in a "private" window. If you are having trouble, that might work for you as well. Alternatively: https://archive.is/DUdqz . 2) Growing up in Northern Wisconsin, the only public radio station we reliably received was from the Ojibwe reservation ( https://www.wojb.org ) and featured a segment called "Ojibwe word of the day". I th…

Ojibwe is better described as a language continuum consisting of multiple languages. The larger the geographical distance between native speakers, the less likely their spoken form will be mutually intelligible. Like the Romance languages. Portuguese and Spanish are pretty close, and while they are much different from Romansh and Romanian speakers might be able to pick out words from each others' speech. So you probably learned moon from another variation of Ojibwe than the dictionary.

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#19
post #11

Is there any evidence of this common claim that obscure languages "may contain some of the most critical solutions to the problems we face as humans"? What kind of problems is he talking about there? Has it ever happened before? So what that a monkey is a "lice hunter"? In English, an anteater is an anteater and a wood splitter is a wood splitter. It's not a very special way of naming things. Maybe this language has…

>Yes, and English does that job much better because you can actually communicate with the world and multiple generations.

That's a misunderstanding of Treuer's point. English is able to define English nations and express the English cultural perspective. He's not arguing that language, generally, is a tool for communication - he's saying that specific languages each yield their own specific identities.

To address the point more generally - languages do, for most speakers, have an influence on thought. People acknowledge that effect to varying degrees, from "you can't think what you can't express" to "language is intertwined with culture and culture differentiates thought" (i.e. not quite Sapir-Worf).

As an anecdotal argument - monolingual speakers often expect translation to be one-to-one, bar idioms. The fact is languages differ in nuance for different kinds of terms, to the point where a mapping might be one-to-many, many-to-one, or completely absent - and those nuances can and do reflect different cultural attitudes. For example, there is no English equivalent to wel[1], the Dutch word for reinforcing a positive sentiment.

[1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wel#Dutch

Re: A Bemidji professor is on a quest to keep the Ojibwe language alive

#20

The part of Northern Ontario where I grew up is part of the Ojibwe nation. The most impressive thing about the nation to me is how inhospitable the region is. The winter where I'm from typically lasts about 8 months, it snowed a few days ago. The area wasn't really permanently inhabited by white people until well after industrialization. I couldn't imagine living there without shipping or heating infrastructure. It's…

> Public school definitely didn't help, we learned absolutely nothing about their culture despite maybe a quarter of my class being native kids.

The one thing that always grated me when learning history in school is how utterly Eurocentric it was. Early anthropology was focused on explaining how "we" (principally Victorian Britain) became so great, and looked at the world through a lens of a checklist of how evolved they were--and people who couldn't smelt bronze were not seen as far advanced, since that's one of the first items in the list. While this view has been thoroughly discredited within the field of anthropology itself, it still lives on in popular writings and (sadly) our history textbooks.

Which is a shame, because the more you study pre-Columbian Americas, the more amazing you find it is. There's plenty to challenge your preconceived notions of history.

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