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Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

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Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#111

Post by kaolti »

colechristensen wrote: post #104
kaolti wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for listing the technical fallacies in the original comment. Now let us humans get on with the actual conversation.

Fake thanks are not appreciated, nor are suggestions that it is inhuman to want to have discussions based on sound reasoning instead of irrelevant nonsense. Raise the bar of discussion.

A discussion is based on the mutual agreement that we'll try to understand THE POINT on what the other person is trying to say.

When someone fails to do that and proceeds to pick apart minutia I consider that a waste of time - quite interesting that you consider that the highest standard of discussion and sound reasoning.

Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#112

Post by victords »

colechristensen wrote: post #49
mikeg8 wrote: post #5

> "It's unfeasible and way too expensive to extract psilocybin from magic mushrooms and the best chemical synthesis methods require expensive and difficult to source starting substrates...” This is one of those situations where I feel like we (humans) are approaching it all wrong. Why over complicate it by trying to “extract” the psilocybin instead of treating it like marijuana and growing the mushrooms in highly con…

There are negative side effects from consuming the mushrooms which you don't get from purified psilocybin. Dosage is important. There isn't a way to test for potency which would ensure a reliable dose. Argument fallacies: * your anecdotal positive experiences * suggesting superiority because something is "from nature" * referring to "mistakes from the past" without naming any * suggesting superiority that "has been (…

If you're pointing out the argument fallacies, you should at least name the negative effects and provide some argument/proof.

Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#113

Post by jmkd »

There's a long history of pairing entheogenic substances with yeast and its bi-products.

For around 1900 years a biannual event took place near Athens known as The Eleusinian Mysteries.[1] This was a real occurrence of which Plato, Socrates, Cicero, Marcus Aurelius and many others wrote about or attended in person. The event culminated in a secret ceremony in which participants invariably reported losing their fear of death [2] Much has been written on the topic, with growing speculation through the 20th century that the initiates took an entheogenic substance, such as psilocybin or ergotamine, from mushrooms, beer or barley. [3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries [2] https://www.ancient.eu/article/32/the-eleusinian-mysteries-t... [3] PDF https://www.mattioli1885journals.com/index.php/MedHistor/art...

Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#114

Post by svara »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #109
svara wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Effective" in the context of the text I quoted refers to efficacy against depression, but you need to also take the side effects into account when deciding between drugs. Since those vary on a case by case basis and can be significant, there are many cases where St. John's wort is overall the better deal.

You are just dodging and fudging. Let me explain why reality matters. Those like you who have the blessing of decent mental health and do not understand - seem quite unwilling to understand in many cases - that those such as me who have to deal with this shit for all their lives can be deeply and negatively affected by you lot posting garbage. If it were a physical disease such as cancer you might be a lot less incli…

I'm sorry that I seem to have offended you with what I wrote, but I honestly don't understand why. St. John's wort can be better in terms of side effects than synthetic antidepressants, with similar antidepressant effects, for some people. That's all I'm saying and that's an evidence based statement.

I started looking into St. John's wort more closely because I saw the positive experiences that people close to me had with it. It's not all just theory to me.

All that said, if you are really interested in the topic you should probably not listen to me but rather look at the actual studies that were done with it. I came away from that convinced that it's at least worth a shot for mild to medium cases of depression, and that it is underused relative to the synthetic alternatives.

Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#115

Post by 34679 »

msla wrote: post #95
ianai wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t dosage be averaged out by simply drying, “powdering”, and mixing the mushrooms as batches? I think similar is used in winemaking.

How is that highly artificial process any better than making a pill? Plus, how do you know what other ingredients are in the mushrooms?

The cannabis industry has learned that "what other ingredients" are in the cannabis has a significant effect on the high produced by THC. This is known as the entourage effect. You simply do not get the full benefits with THC alone.

Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#116

Post by mistermann »

colechristensen wrote: post #49
mikeg8 wrote: post #5

> "It's unfeasible and way too expensive to extract psilocybin from magic mushrooms and the best chemical synthesis methods require expensive and difficult to source starting substrates...” This is one of those situations where I feel like we (humans) are approaching it all wrong. Why over complicate it by trying to “extract” the psilocybin instead of treating it like marijuana and growing the mushrooms in highly con…

There are negative side effects from consuming the mushrooms which you don't get from purified psilocybin. Dosage is important. There isn't a way to test for potency which would ensure a reliable dose. Argument fallacies: * your anecdotal positive experiences * suggesting superiority because something is "from nature" * referring to "mistakes from the past" without naming any * suggesting superiority that "has been (…

>> Why over complicate it by trying to “extract” the psilocybin instead of treating it like marijuana and growing the mushrooms in highly controlled settings and then testing for potency?!

> There are negative side effects from consuming the mushrooms which you don't get from purified psilocybin.

True. However, are these negative side effects significant enough that purified psilocybin is a necessity, in all cases?

If so, what are these negative side effects, and is there significant net evidence (that includes degree of ~harm) sufficient to form a strong conclusion that purified psilocybin is a necessity, that does not also include personal opinions/judgements of persons other than an informed patient?

> Dosage is important.

Sure, to a degree.

However, is there sufficient net evidence that dosage precision (above that which can be achieved via simpler approaches) necessitates the usage of purified psilocybin?

If so, can you link this evidence?

> There isn't a way to test for potency which would ensure a reliable dose.

See above.

> Argument fallacies:

> * your anecdotal positive experiences

When dealing with compounds whose effects are extremely phenomenological and inconsistent/variable between applications, anecdotal experiences seem not only valid, but mandatory for proper scientific study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_experience#Basic_p...

> * suggesting superiority because something is "from nature"

Framing advocacy for traditional, simple, affordable, and well-tested approaches as ~"illogical appeals to nature" is also a fallacy, and can be worse. (Not saying you're personally doing this, just as you aren't accusing anyone in particular for the fallacies you have listed).

> * referring to "mistakes from the past" without naming any

Perfectly fine. But let's not pretend all sides in debates aren't often guilty of this sort of behavior.

> * suggesting superiority that "has been (done) for thousands of years"

Implying that a long track record of success is irrelevant is also a fallacy, as is framing a reference to this track record as "fallacious".

> Think about why these kinds of arguments are made on different topics which you disagree with and then rethink why you are making them here.

I would suggest you rethink whether that accusation is objectively true, based on the literal words written, as opposed to your subconscious mind's interpretation of the words.

I would also suggest you rethink the quality and validity of your ~rejection of the parent's relatively innocuous suggestion, and also contemplate whether this level of thinking and discourse is appropriate for the gravity of the topic being discussed, and consistent with the principles of objective rationality and truthfulness this forum proclaims to uphold.

Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#117

Post by andai »

rv-de wrote: post #105
andai wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't tried pure psilocybin but I occasionally have gut discomfort which I think comes from the fibers, rather than the psilocybin.

There are various ways to ingest mushrooms. Having said that - let me assure you, the problem is not just from the fibers it's very well the substance itself. One reason is the activation of serotonin receptors of which there are huge numbers in your gut.

Interesting. I think LSD works on Serotonin too? But it has much less body load in my experience (at least, the unpleasant kind I associate with psilocybin).

Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#118

Post by azernik »

plurinshael wrote: post #37
asdff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing it in yeast would be great if you are trying to get a consistent quantity of the drug. You could do vats at a time all genetically identical and producing the same yield batch over batch, and can scale up and down your operation for as much as you have vats and yeast food. This is something you want if you are going to press this into pills at a certain dose and give to people for psychiatric disorders, not f…

People with psychiatric disorders need spiritual journeys. Spiritual journeys heal and cleanse the mind, heal and cleanse the soul. Do not try to strip that away. The commodification of medicine troubles me--I prefer the perspective of sacred medicine. It goes roughly definitionally / tautologically: if something heals you, is it not sacred? And likewise, if something is sacred, it heals you. By definition. The idea…

> if something heals you, is it not sacred? And likewise, if something is sacred, it heals you.

Let me explain in two different ways why this is wrong.

First, because we are after all a site full of programmers, let me put this in terms of prepositional logic: A => B is different from B => A. If I tell you "all doctors are humans" (let's assume this is true, for the sake of the example), accepting that proposition does not then imply "all humans are doctors".

Second, from a philosophical/rhetorical perspective: you are using two different definitions of "sacred" and acting like they're the same. There's the one by which, if something heals you it is sacred (a consequential reading, where "sacredness" has to do with the value of healing). Then there's the one where if something is sacred it heals you (a deontological/aesthetic reading, where "sacredness" is an attribute inherent to an act regardless of its consequences). Acting like the two are the same leads you into a trap of assuming that because something is moral/sacred/good, its consequences must also be good. This is not so.

Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#119

Post by rv-de »

andai wrote: post #117
rv-de wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are various ways to ingest mushrooms. Having said that - let me assure you, the problem is not just from the fibers it's very well the substance itself. One reason is the activation of serotonin receptors of which there are huge numbers in your gut.

Interesting. I think LSD works on Serotonin too? But it has much less body load in my experience (at least, the unpleasant kind I associate with psilocybin).

Yes, absolutely. LSD shows mostly a higher binding affinity to the various 5HT-receptors.

https://psychedelicreview.com/the-serotonin-receptors-compar...

Re: Psilocybin Produced in Yeast

#120

Post by crankylinuxuser »

pmoriarty wrote: post #86
Nursie wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distillation on home premises without proper safety procedures is a recipe for explosions and for contaminated/weird distillation products. I'm a home-brewer, and have cold-distilled a couple of things (you can get up to about 22% that way IIRC), but I'm good with it being a little difficult to get started distilling, from a safety standpoint.

"I'm good with it being a little difficult to get started distilling, from a safety standpoint." If you screw up home canning, you can get botulism, which can very easily kill you and anyone else who consumes it. Same if you simply store some home-made garlic olive oil in your refrigerator. Cook beans wrong and you could get very sick or even die. Cooking on a gas stove could result in your house catching on fire, or…

Harming or offing yourself isn't as a big of deal as being a food/beverage producer and handing what you make to others (even free). Distillation is one such bulk method.

Distilled alcohol with a cut of methanol will make for a very sad day for anyone who imbibes.

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