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A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

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Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#91

Post by Gibbon1 »

mikedilger wrote: post #77
astura wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the whole idea of ubi is you replace the patchwork of various social programs (and the overhead of each program) with a basic ubi for everyone. It's supposed to be much more efficient and there's no disincentives to self improvement (because you never lose your benefits). I personally don't actually think it disincentives working very much because people who want to work for more than just the minimum always wi…

I get how losing a benefit if you start working could be an even greater disincentive than UBI. I wasn't catching that point previously, so thanks.

I know a few people on disability. Since it's their lifeline they are generally stressed to terrified of losing it. So you have both an disincentive to look for work and risk losing benefits. And the stress also negatively effects their mental health as well. Which also makes it difficult to find productive work.

It's also cruel way to make people live.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#92

Post by refurb »

twblalock wrote: post #78
zhoujianfu wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t a (high enough) UBI mean the free market would create “affordable” education and “affordable” health care and obviate the need for unemployment benefits?

No country that has achieved high-quality affordable education and health care for its citizens has done it via market-based means. It probably can't be done.

Healthcare in Switzerland and Singapore is largely private.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#93

Post by xsdklfsdfklj »

Jedd wrote: post #85
twblalock wrote: post #73

The problem with UBI is that we would turn it back into the welfare system we have now. Let's say we pass a truly universal basic income bill -- every person gets the same amount of money from the government, every month. It wouldn't take long before politicians propose giving more money to teachers and single mothers, or taking benefits away from convicted felons and sex offenders. Over time, bit by bit, we will ent…

> The problem with UBI is that we would turn it back into the welfare system we have now. That's not a problem with UBI. IMO that scenario is not likely, let alone guaranteed. I appreciate a pessimistic outlook as much as the next guy, but I don't think we should abandon UBI because you think it may change in the future.

the argument against it [1] is practically that if it is being pushed by the current system it is to benefit the current system. As in, "uber needs a safety net for their drivers" kinda of vision, which given the track record in the US is very likely.

[1] https://jacobinmag.com/2017/12/universal-basic-income-inequa...

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#94

Post by _curious_ »

ineedasername wrote: post #53
mikedilger wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI to people outside of the workforce is entirely different. My argument against UBI is that it erodes the desire to work, and we still need nearly everybody of working age to work... until the robots catch up (they still have a lot of catching up to do).

I'm not sure how much it erodes the desire to work: Having a minimum wage job that that keeps you at the the poverty level doesn't really dissuade people from wanting more and trying to get it. The entire culture of having a "career path" with an upward trajectory runs counter to the idea that people, given something like UBI, will suddenly stop wanting & being willing to work for more.

"I'm not sure how much it erodes the desire to work"

Probably about to the amount of working time and thus income it replaces? That could be an hour a day, a day a week, or a week per month depending again on how much UBI we're talking?

"Having a minimum wage job that that keeps you at the the poverty level doesn't really dissuade people from wanting more and trying to get it."

That's because the job isn't keeping someone at the poverty level, they are keeping themselves at the poverty level by choice. Sometimes, some people choose to change that because they realize they are the only thing holding themselves back, not the other way around.

"The entire culture of having a "career path" with an upward trajectory runs counter to the idea that people, given something like UBI, will suddenly stop wanting & being willing to work for more."

Agreed...although many in America are already choosing to reject the notion of a "career path" and have relinquished their desires for "upward trajectory" - and that's before UBI.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#95

Post by Ididntdothis »

refurb wrote: post #92
twblalock wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country that has achieved high-quality affordable education and health care for its citizens has done it via market-based means. It probably can't be done.

Healthcare in Switzerland and Singapore is largely private.

I don’t know about Singapore but in Switzerland there is a lot of regulation around insurers and doctors to set prices. Same in Germany.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#96

Post by twblalock »

refurb wrote: post #92
twblalock wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country that has achieved high-quality affordable education and health care for its citizens has done it via market-based means. It probably can't be done.

Healthcare in Switzerland and Singapore is largely private.

It's not a free market though. It is heavily regulated.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#97

Post by _curious_ »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #91
mikedilger wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get how losing a benefit if you start working could be an even greater disincentive than UBI. I wasn't catching that point previously, so thanks.

I know a few people on disability. Since it's their lifeline they are generally stressed to terrified of losing it. So you have both an disincentive to look for work and risk losing benefits. And the stress also negatively effects their mental health as well. Which also makes it difficult to find productive work. It's also cruel way to make people live.

Who is making people live this way and how are they forcing them?

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#98

Post by _curious_ »

astura wrote: post #86
Supermancho wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of my wife's family also do not work. It has been this way for at least 3 generations and are raising another generation of the same.

So what's your opinion on ubi given your observations with your wife's family finding ways to get out of employment, if you don't mind me asking. Personally, I don't think that you're ever going to get rid of those sorts of people, so someone ends up "paying for them" anyway.

Who ends up paying for them and why?

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#99

Post by Gibbon1 »

_curious_ wrote: post #97
Gibbon1 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a few people on disability. Since it's their lifeline they are generally stressed to terrified of losing it. So you have both an disincentive to look for work and risk losing benefits. And the stress also negatively effects their mental health as well. Which also makes it difficult to find productive work. It's also cruel way to make people live.

Who is making people live this way and how are they forcing them?

It's the situation caused by the laws and policies in place and their physical and mental heath issues.

I have some sympathy because I got sick in the early 2000's and couldn't work and was just about overwhelmed with just trying to figure out what was wrong medically. Fortunately I had enough savings to see me through without having to worry about being homeless. And enough professional contacts that I was able to land a light duty job once I started recovering. I only needed to work 3-4 hours a day at first.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#100

Post by twblalock »

Jedd wrote: post #85
twblalock wrote: post #73

The problem with UBI is that we would turn it back into the welfare system we have now. Let's say we pass a truly universal basic income bill -- every person gets the same amount of money from the government, every month. It wouldn't take long before politicians propose giving more money to teachers and single mothers, or taking benefits away from convicted felons and sex offenders. Over time, bit by bit, we will ent…

> The problem with UBI is that we would turn it back into the welfare system we have now. That's not a problem with UBI. IMO that scenario is not likely, let alone guaranteed. I appreciate a pessimistic outlook as much as the next guy, but I don't think we should abandon UBI because you think it may change in the future.

It is actually a problem with UBI: UBI does not line up with most people's beliefs about who deserves help, those beliefs are so powerful that they resulted in the creation of our existing welfare systems, and they aren't going to go away overnight.
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