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A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

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Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#51

Post by ineedasername »

innocentoldguy wrote: post #31
danesparza wrote: post #19

I'm glad to see Thomas Paine referenced in this article. So many Americans don't realize that one of America's founding fathers championed the idea of universal basic income back when the USA was just being created. This was something that Andrew Yang pointed out, but was largely ignored.

I hear this a lot but in reading Paine’s writings, I can only find ideas somewhat similar to Social Security payments for elderly people. I have not been able to find anything in Paine’s writings that is synonymous with the concept of UBI. I’m not saying it isn’t in there somewhere, just that I haven’t found it. Would you mind citing specifically where you found this information?

I'm not familiar with his writings to cite more detail, but it seems to me if he supported a sort of Social Security, then he was advocating for a targeted UBI. Maybe that's just semantics though.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#52

Post by zozbot234 »

ineedasername wrote: post #50

I think UBI as a single monolithic program for providing minimum resources to provide the basics of food/shelter etc can be much improved on by other means: [0]Instead, I think a constellation of smaller, targeted programs (think best-of-breed) might be more effective and provide a more robust effect: If a society provides universal healthcare, comprehensive unemployment benefits that don't have absurdly low caps, ho…

A patchwork of "targeted" programs is unsatisfactory for many reasons. It lets people fall through the cracks, and it results in unintended effects as the programs are not designed or managed in a consistent way. The need for some sort of minimal income floor is universal, and it should be addressed in a universally-applicable way.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#53

Post by ineedasername »

mikedilger wrote: post #42
lostlogin wrote: post #15

Below is an article arguing that New Zealand has been testing a UBI for decades with its pension scheme which is available to everyone aged over 65. Be warned - Gareth Morgan has some interesting politics. http://morganfoundation.org.nz/already-ubi-nz-super/

UBI to people outside of the workforce is entirely different. My argument against UBI is that it erodes the desire to work, and we still need nearly everybody of working age to work... until the robots catch up (they still have a lot of catching up to do).

I'm not sure how much it erodes the desire to work: Having a minimum wage job that that keeps you at the the poverty level doesn't really dissuade people from wanting more and trying to get it. The entire culture of having a "career path" with an upward trajectory runs counter to the idea that people, given something like UBI, will suddenly stop wanting & being willing to work for more.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#54

Post by mikedilger »

ineedasername wrote: post #53
mikedilger wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI to people outside of the workforce is entirely different. My argument against UBI is that it erodes the desire to work, and we still need nearly everybody of working age to work... until the robots catch up (they still have a lot of catching up to do).

I'm not sure how much it erodes the desire to work: Having a minimum wage job that that keeps you at the the poverty level doesn't really dissuade people from wanting more and trying to get it. The entire culture of having a "career path" with an upward trajectory runs counter to the idea that people, given something like UBI, will suddenly stop wanting & being willing to work for more.

Then I suppose I projecting (psychologically). I would stop working. I'm barely working now. But I shouldn't assume I'm typical. Thanks for the feedback.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#55

Post by ineedasername »

rodolphoarruda wrote: post #38

Quick conceptual question from a noob in the subject: does the UBI entirely replace social security for elderly individuals or is it added on top of it?

That seems more like an implementation detail. It certainly could replace social security, but then again in the US social security payouts are tied to how much you've paid into it over the years. Then again, UBI would be paid for, albeit less directly, but tax payments as well so it might not be an important distinction.

And of course it would be important to peg the UBI to different costs of living for different regions.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#56

Post by zozbot234 »

ineedasername wrote: post #55
rodolphoarruda wrote: post #38

Quick conceptual question from a noob in the subject: does the UBI entirely replace social security for elderly individuals or is it added on top of it?

That seems more like an implementation detail. It certainly could replace social security, but then again in the US social security payouts are tied to how much you've paid into it over the years. Then again, UBI would be paid for, albeit less directly, but tax payments as well so it might not be an important distinction. And of course it would be important to peg the UBI to different costs of living for different re…

I'd do the opposite. Peg UBI to the lowest cost of living, and have separate short-term insurance-only programs (on top of UBI) for folks living in higher-cost areas. That way, those who are unwilling or unable to work in the longer term will be incented to move to low-cost areas and relieve pressure elsewhere.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#57

Post by zhoujianfu »

craigsmansion wrote: post #34
Ididntdothis wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"focus on your healthcare" Very true. No UBI without health care for all.

Yes. I'd say: No UBI without good affordable health care for all. No UBI without good affordable education for all. No UBI without humane unemployment benefits for all. No UBI for all, because you already managed it.

Wouldn’t a (high enough) UBI mean the free market would create “affordable” education and “affordable” health care and obviate the need for unemployment benefits?

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#58

Post by dragonwriter »

mikedilger wrote: post #40

I don't think there is any sort of unanimity regarding UBI. Being compensated for staying home is not UBI, because it is not ongoing. I'm against UBI for reasons that became apparent while playing MMORPGs. Stay with me here and I'll explain. Players of an RPG want a fun game. But they also want to succeed/win. These goals partially conflict. If they prioritize winning too highly, and pester customer support to make t…

> In life, we want to be lazy.

Therea plenty of evidence that this isn't really all that true, and that if there is even a modicum of apparent reward for extra labor, people will continue to put extra labor in for that reward, often even past the point where that extra nominal reward seems to provide any additional real utility for them.

> . I'm already working less than 20 hours per week (pre-COVID) because my mortgage is paid and I don't really need the money anymore

Very few people, even well into the income range where research shows no additional subjective utility to additional earnings, ever reach the point where they recognize that they don't need any more money. So, you aren't typical and your entire argument seems to rest on assuming your atypical attitude holds generally.

> But as a society, if a lot of people like me slack off more, the real economy will suffer.

Anthropomorphizing the economy here obscures rather than aids understanding; what would happen if abstention from additional effort were excessively common is inflation, bringing down the real value of the UBI and reducing the number of people who found it sufficient to not exert additional effort, pushing people back into the workforce. It's a self-controlling negative feedback system.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#59

Post by zhoujianfu »

zozbot234 wrote: post #52
ineedasername wrote: post #50

I think UBI as a single monolithic program for providing minimum resources to provide the basics of food/shelter etc can be much improved on by other means: [0]Instead, I think a constellation of smaller, targeted programs (think best-of-breed) might be more effective and provide a more robust effect: If a society provides universal healthcare, comprehensive unemployment benefits that don't have absurdly low caps, ho…

A patchwork of "targeted" programs is unsatisfactory for many reasons. It lets people fall through the cracks, and it results in unintended effects as the programs are not designed or managed in a consistent way. The need for some sort of minimal income floor is universal, and it should be addressed in a universally-applicable way.

Exactly.. my personal genealogy for discovering UBI was:

The government should provide for a base level of food, medicine, housing, and education.

But let private industry compete for it, so just provide vouchers for each of those things.

But, how to efficiently allocate the amounts for each individual? How much health care voucher vs. food voucher vs. housing voucher vs. education voucher?

Ah, just have a universal “health or food or housing or education” voucher!

Oh, but what about transportation!

Okay, a universal “housing, food, medicine, transportation, and education” voucher.

Oh wait, we have one of those already! The dollar.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#60

Post by zozbot234 »

zhoujianfu wrote: post #57
craigsmansion wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I'd say: No UBI without good affordable health care for all. No UBI without good affordable education for all. No UBI without humane unemployment benefits for all. No UBI for all, because you already managed it.

Wouldn’t a (high enough) UBI mean the free market would create “affordable” education and “affordable” health care and obviate the need for unemployment benefits?

There is no free market in education credentials or in healthcare. Both sectors are heavily regulated by the government.
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