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Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

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Re: Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

#181
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

at what multiplier would you consider being skeptical about what he says. your comparison of the 2 mil which was the worst case scenario months ago, and now irrelevant, with 40k which was his prediction from 10 days ago is wrong.

You have to read the study’s details, not just the number in the headline. The IC report’s highest number was looking at what would happen if strong countermeasures were not taken, and they subsequently were — it’s like criticizing the justifications for mandating seatbelts because so many fewer people die in car crashes now.

that's what I am trying to tell him. comparing his prediction a week ago with measures to a prediction a month or more ago without measure is pointless.

Re: Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

#182
post #72
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has a pretty high number of COVID-19 deaths, so I'm not sure if I'd like to follow their model.

It is expected that 70% of the population will get coronavirus then we will have herd immunity. The lock down is about stopping the healthcare systems getting overwhelmed (that will cause unnecessary deaths). That's the way I understand things. The same number of deaths will occur are likely to occur in the long term unless Sweden's ICU beds get full. If anyone has an alternative interpretation I am open to hearing i…

According to healthdata.org (IHME), Sweden has 79 ICU beds. If this is true, it seems that slowing the curve may not be worth it with so few ICU beds available.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/sweden

Re: Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He’s pretty much right though. It spreads worse than the flu Err, it spreads much better, several times more than the flu. > and Dr. Ioaniddis recently published a serological study showing it seems to have a mortality rate similar to the flu Dr. Ioaniddis study was cherry-picked and bogus, much like the studies he was famous for criticizing...

[citation needed] about cherry picking. The limits of their scheme was acknowledged and discussed in the paper. What cherry picking are you referring to that wasn’t addressed?

This paper?

"I think the authors of the above-linked paper owe us all an apology. We wasted time and effort discussing this paper whose main selling point was some numbers that were essentially the product of a statistical error."

https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/04/19/fatal-flaw...

Re: Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

#184
post #166
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has a pretty high number of COVID-19 deaths, so I'm not sure if I'd like to follow their model.

When this is done and everyone is vaccinated, Sweden will have at least 5x the number of deaths per capita of their neighbors in the west and southwest. And the people of Sweden will still have strong support for their authorities' decisive response to the epidemic. My prediction.

How would this be possible? Do you believe that less than 50% of the population will get it outside of sweden? The lockdown cannot continue for a long time. The lockdown is just pushing the time frame by a few weeks. In the end the same percentage of the population will get it everywhere. Locking down is a short term solution to stall the contagion while the health system gears up to deal with it.

Re: Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “masks, masks, masks.” Exactly. I wonder how many lives could have been saved if we (western/European countries) didn’t have such an aversion to wearing face masks, even in a time of pandemic?

I wonder how many lives could have been saved if we (western/European countries) didn’t have such an aversion to wearing face masks My wife and I were one of the few people wearing masks at the start of the pandemic, before the closing and work from home orders came. We were harassed by random people shouting at us. Also, I don't really get the societal penalty for disaster preparation. It's completely illogical. Jus…

My best theory so far is that when it comes to telling people what they themselves need to do (as opposed to inactionable general fear), mainstream media narratives are based around telling audiences the easy answer that they want to hear - eg you don't have to do anything to prepare, and those that do are wrong. Obviously this has always been an ongoing quality (eg no need to oppose the Iraq war since it's just), but with a public health emergency it's front and center.

Re: Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “masks, masks, masks.” Exactly. I wonder how many lives could have been saved if we (western/European countries) didn’t have such an aversion to wearing face masks, even in a time of pandemic?

No one has done a controlled study on this, so no one really knows. It ranges from zero to many. The reason government and medical signaling on the subject has been so mixed is that it isn’t apparent they are very effective, especially the jury rigged cloth masks that people are using.

> no one really knows

Healthcare workers wear masks. I'm pretty sure they have a pretty good idea whether masks work.

Re: Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ~50% wont even show any symptoms It is closer to 20% A lot of articles stating more are mis-interpreting those numbers from prospective studies. It is possible that the authors of such studies would downplay false positives as well.

I think they don't know yet, even the US were saying it might be 25-50% a couple of days ago. For example the testing of the aircraft carrier, one of the few cases of total population testing, showed 60% asymptomatic cases but had a young population, and it's not clear from the information we've heard publically if some of those will develop symptoms later. So at the moment no-one really knows for certain.

60% asymptomatic at the time of testing

Most of them will eventually begin showing symptoms

Re: Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

#188
post #4

This worries me. South Korea's mass testing alone was not enough to contain the coronavirus outbreak; they relied on social distancing measures too: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-southk...

South Korea: 234 deaths 8042 recovered. China: 4632 deaths, 77k recovered[1]. Their treatment protocol is an order of magnitude better than every other country. What are they doing that we're not? This is a huge glaring discrepancy. What's the difference between their treatment protocols and everyone else's? [1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

What's the difference between their treatment protocols and everyone else's?

It's mind boggling anyone has to ask now this has been going on so long but here goes.

1) They had an approach plan beforehand because they had observed the previous SARS epidemic and took the danger seriously.

2) They had "quarantine hotels" freely available for those who were positive to prevent them from infecting others. (Seattle has a few of these, I've heard but they aren't widespread in the US. The idea of housing people freely is anethema to the US.)

3) They did testing early and often.

4) Their doctors and nurses worked with full PPEs, full anti-contamination suits, so they didn't themselves massively spread the illness.

5) They reserved hospitals specifically for the epidemic and had protocols for sending people to these hotel.

6) They had drive through testing and other testing easily and freely available (the US plan of profiting from testing is just so "I can't even").

7) They did systematic contact tracing with an app for people to discover where infectious people had been.

8) They did social distancing with mask from the start.

-- The US had literally done NONE of this. What the US has done is last-ditch efforts by states after the ostensibly responsible parties (the CDC etc) failed massively. And the Federal government is now literally sabotaging the states.

Re: Seoul's full cafes, Apple store lines show mass testing success

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's with unprecedented social distancing measures - the 50x prediction was without... Ioannides in his mid-March article was predicting "10,000" deaths in total in the US, without measures...

It's worth putting his actual statement here, so people can decide whether you're misrepresenting him. From his article [1]: > If we assume that case fatality rate among individuals infected by SARS-CoV-2 is 0.3% in the general population — a mid-range guess from my Diamond Princess analysis — and that 1% of the U.S. population gets infected (about 3.3 million people), this would translate to about 10,000 deaths. [1]…

> Never does he predict that 1% will be infected.

But he uses exactly this in his argument, in the same paragraph: "If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR tests, the number of total deaths due to “influenza-like illness” would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average."

Then later: "Some worry that the 68 deaths from Covid-19 in the U.S. as of March 16 will increase exponentially to 680, 6,800, 68,000, 680,000 … along with similar catastrophic patterns around the globe. Is that a realistic scenario, or bad science fiction?"

Then he claims that "The most valuable piece of information for answering those questions would be to know the current prevalence of the infection in a random sample of a population"

But I claim he already had, at the moment he wrote that article, much better data than that already available: specifically, that all the statistics everybody could find even in the Wikipedia already gave much more information that he claimed has to be obtained by "a random sample of a population."

One can evaluate "how random" all already known cases, at the time he wrote the article, were. But also one can evaluate, if these known cases, even if they weren't random, were actually saying more, not less, by the nature the numbers were obtained.

And that was exactly the case: time and again, in country after country, the statistics included much more people than the small randomness based study would include, and it gave reasonable estimates about both the speed of the spread and percentage of the people affected.

His argument was not based on analyzing already available data, but on "not knowing" by *refusing to even look at the already available data.

Which is fraudulent, ignorant or both. But there were some big names doing exactly the same, exactly at the time he published that article. So his article was just political, not scientific at all.

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