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A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

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Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#31

Post by innocentoldguy »

danesparza wrote: post #19

I'm glad to see Thomas Paine referenced in this article. So many Americans don't realize that one of America's founding fathers championed the idea of universal basic income back when the USA was just being created. This was something that Andrew Yang pointed out, but was largely ignored.

I hear this a lot but in reading Paine’s writings, I can only find ideas somewhat similar to Social Security payments for elderly people. I have not been able to find anything in Paine’s writings that is synonymous with the concept of UBI. I’m not saying it isn’t in there somewhere, just that I haven’t found it.

Would you mind citing specifically where you found this information?

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#32

Post by mistermann »

gonational wrote: post #22

“Universal basic income” of any reasonable size in, e.g., the US, requires the creation of new money, because taxation is insufficient for its funding. New money derives its value, subtractively, from the value of existing money (“WEALTH”), which is held by individuals who earned that money (“WORKERS“). Some individuals decide not to work because of reasons OTHER THAN retirement, inheritance, disability, and child be…

> ...from the value of existing money (“WEALTH”), which is held by individuals who earned that money (“WORKERS“).

"Earned" and "workers" seem like rather tricky words in this context.

This theory sounds like somewhat of the typical strawman (innacurate) understanding of Randian laissez faire economics.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#33

Post by geddy »

gonational wrote: post #22

“Universal basic income” of any reasonable size in, e.g., the US, requires the creation of new money, because taxation is insufficient for its funding. New money derives its value, subtractively, from the value of existing money (“WEALTH”), which is held by individuals who earned that money (“WORKERS“). Some individuals decide not to work because of reasons OTHER THAN retirement, inheritance, disability, and child be…

Sounds about right. Like everything in the US, some group is trying to figure out a way to siphon money from those to earn to those who “need it more”. I don’t care to support this, I want all the money I make, thank you very much. I’ll decide who to help with it. Or, I’ll help no one at all with the money I worked for, which according to college students and other people who have no skills and have paid no taxes, makes me “greedy”.

Now if you want to fix the screwed up healthcare system, I’m all ears.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#34

Post by craigsmansion »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #27
craigsmansion wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm about as "red as they get" and there's something really grating about US citizens talking about "UBI", and pointing to a variety of social policies in various European countries. These policies are hard-fought and need to be well balanced to be effective in the long term. You can't just implement them without thinking about repercussions and side-effects. I'd say, if you're a US citizen, forget about "UBI" as a s…

"focus on your healthcare" Very true. No UBI without health care for all.

Yes. I'd say:

No UBI without good affordable health care for all.

No UBI without good affordable education for all.

No UBI without humane unemployment benefits for all.

No UBI for all, because you already managed it.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#35

Post by devit »

rriepe wrote: post #21

Once we implement UBI, what's the argument against doubling it?

The fact that UBI should not be about giving an amount of money, but rather about giving essentials like housing and food or the equivalent in money, and "doubling" essentials doesn't make as much sense, since you don't have much use for two beds or twice the food.

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#36

Post by franciscop »

daenz wrote: post #16
craigsmansion wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm about as "red as they get" and there's something really grating about US citizens talking about "UBI", and pointing to a variety of social policies in various European countries. These policies are hard-fought and need to be well balanced to be effective in the long term. You can't just implement them without thinking about repercussions and side-effects. I'd say, if you're a US citizen, forget about "UBI" as a s…

We never hear about the downsides of other countries models either. It's always a cherry-picking of the best policies and pretending there's never any trade offs. That kind of disingenuous promotion doesn't do any favors when it comes to convincing people.

Interestingly enough, 5-10 years ago in Spain you could hear some proponents of private healthcare to compare it with the US. Now I think there's enough understanding that the US model doesn't work that the proponents instead talk about Singapore or other private models, no one compares them to the US anymore.

Some arguments against universal health care I have heard in Spain: • Not enough choice, since you cannot e.g. pay more to get better treatment. • It's more expensive, since there's no free market to move prices down. • It's more efficient, since people are not paid to do nothing and impossible to fire (common complain about gvmt jobs here).

No beef here, just relaying what I've commonly heard

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#39

Post by [deleted] »

danesparza wrote: post #19

I'm glad to see Thomas Paine referenced in this article. So many Americans don't realize that one of America's founding fathers championed the idea of universal basic income back when the USA was just being created. This was something that Andrew Yang pointed out, but was largely ignored.

[deleted]

Re: A Genealogy of the Idea of Universal Basic Income

#40

Post by mikedilger »

I don't think there is any sort of unanimity regarding UBI. Being compensated for staying home is not UBI, because it is not ongoing.

I'm against UBI for reasons that became apparent while playing MMORPGs. Stay with me here and I'll explain.

Players of an RPG want a fun game. But they also want to succeed/win. These goals partially conflict. If they prioritize winning too highly, and pester customer support to make the game easier (nerf), the game loses it's fun. Even (in my estimation) to the people who pestered customer support. Because some people aren't self aware enough (kids) to realize that the challenge is what makes it fun.

In life, we want to be lazy. I certainly do. And that desire makes me think a UBI would be quite nice. But I also realize that I most certainly would be lazy. I'm already working less than 20 hours per week (pre-COVID) because my mortgage is paid and I don't really need the money anymore. With a UBI I might stop work completely. But as a society, if a lot of people like me slack off more, the real economy will suffer. Less hours will be worked, prices will go up, and the economy will be more depressed and sluggish.

Robots could save us but we are not there yet, not by a long shot. Maybe we are there in very specific manufacturing industries, but no robot is going to install a new roof on my house (for example).

So I think we should wait until after all the jobs are taken by robots (rather than thinking it's imminent when it's most certainly not) to institute UBI. Eventually. But not any time soon.

OTOH I'm perfectly okay with a means-tested payout to people who really need it.

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