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Mainframes Are Having a Moment

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Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#51

Post by mdtusz »

ardy42 wrote: post #42
jabedude wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C + Linux. That seems to be the most promising tech with regards to longevity that exists today.

> C + Linux. That seems to be the most promising tech with regards to longevity that exists today. It really depends on the application. C & Linux will literally be around forever, but C isn't the best language for a line-of-business application like an unemployment system. Java would be a better fit for something like that.

Just curious, what's your reasoning for thinking C wouldn't be a good fit? I'd think either would be fine choices given their ubiquity. (Not a C or Java programmer, just like to learn!)

Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#52

Post by AnimalMuppet »

tgflynn wrote: post #46
dfboyd wrote: post #36

I think this is just an IBM PR piece. It ticks all the boxes: quotes from IBM customers, quotes from IBM staff, mentions the "Master the Mainframe" contest. You can tell because when it says "mainframe" it doesn't mean "any large computer", it means "Something descended from the IBM 360".

Yes, because that's what the word "mainframe" means today, simply because all other machine architectures that were considered mainframes are now extinct. I'm not saying it's not IBM PR, though.

Unisys's ClearPath series are considered to be mainframes (or so says Wikipedia). The most recent ClearPath Dorado model was introduced in 2015.

As for the article: This may be what Paul Graham called a "submarine".

Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#53

Post by pjmlp »

jimbokun wrote: post #31
pjmlp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since 1985 that COBOL can be structured, and since 2002 object oriented as well, with the latest ISO update being done in 2014 Besides compiling to native code, there are compilers that target JVM and CLR as well.

> there are compilers that target JVM and CLR So could you wrap it and slowly add new features and replace pieces with Java code over time, using JVM for interop?

Yes, it is possible, for example check Visual Cobol from Micro Focus.

https://www.microfocus.com/en-us/products/visual-cobol/overv...

Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#54

Post by burntoutfire »

mdtusz wrote: post #51
ardy42 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C + Linux. That seems to be the most promising tech with regards to longevity that exists today. It really depends on the application. C & Linux will literally be around forever, but C isn't the best language for a line-of-business application like an unemployment system. Java would be a better fit for something like that.

Just curious, what's your reasoning for thinking C wouldn't be a good fit? I'd think either would be fine choices given their ubiquity. (Not a C or Java programmer, just like to learn!)

C, compared to Java, is a poor fit for a multitude of reasons, for example:

- undefined behaviour

- non-portable binaries

- lack of rich and powerful standard library

- manual memory management requires developers of higher skill and discipline

Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#55

Post by pinewurst »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #52
tgflynn wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because that's what the word "mainframe" means today, simply because all other machine architectures that were considered mainframes are now extinct. I'm not saying it's not IBM PR, though.

Unisys's ClearPath series are considered to be mainframes (or so says Wikipedia). The most recent ClearPath Dorado model was introduced in 2015. As for the article: This may be what Paul Graham called a "submarine".

Unisys represents two different mainframe families - those descending from Univac/Sperry 1100 and those descending from the Burroughs mainframes. Both are purely emulated on x64 these days. Personally I think the latter are especially interesting, much more so than IBM!

IBM is really going with whatever positive publicity they can muster trying to obscure the profoundly awful age discrimination that they’re guilty of. It’s brutally ironic that the same people who are preaching “young people need to do mainframe” are the same who are aggressively ditching their own senior, experienced, expensive mainframe people.

Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#56

Post by m463 »

chachachoney wrote: post #47
vageli wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The surge in demand is being driven almost entirely by state unemployment systems. Most of these systems haven't seen a surge in unemployment claims since the 2009 recession and haven't had to change the underlying rules governing eligibility in even longer. Once the systems are patched and/or the surge in new claims subsides, 90% of this sudden demand for "Cobalt programmers" will evaporate. I generally agree but…

Is Cobalt an obscure dialect of Cobol?

I suspect that's tongue in cheek humor.

Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#57

Post by pinewurst »

Zenst wrote: post #22
tgflynn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VAX's were minicomputers, not mainframes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX_9000 "The VAX 9000, code named Aridus or Aquarius, was a family of supercomputer and mainframe computers developed and manufactured by Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) using processors implementing the VAX instruction set architecture (ISA)."

VAX 9000 was quickly superseded by the NVAX processor. It was Ken Olsen’s final failure at DEC to expend tremendous resources on an ECL mainframe only to have a single chip equivalent by the time it finally shipped.

Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#58

Post by pirocks »

chachachoney wrote: post #47
vageli wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The surge in demand is being driven almost entirely by state unemployment systems. Most of these systems haven't seen a surge in unemployment claims since the 2009 recession and haven't had to change the underlying rules governing eligibility in even longer. Once the systems are patched and/or the surge in new claims subsides, 90% of this sudden demand for "Cobalt programmers" will evaporate. I generally agree but…

Is Cobalt an obscure dialect of Cobol?

If your out of the loop, a state governor (I believe New Jersey) called cobol, cobalt.

Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#59

Post by skissane »

pinewurst wrote: post #55
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unisys's ClearPath series are considered to be mainframes (or so says Wikipedia). The most recent ClearPath Dorado model was introduced in 2015. As for the article: This may be what Paul Graham called a "submarine".

Unisys represents two different mainframe families - those descending from Univac/Sperry 1100 and those descending from the Burroughs mainframes. Both are purely emulated on x64 these days. Personally I think the latter are especially interesting, much more so than IBM! IBM is really going with whatever positive publicity they can muster trying to obscure the profoundly awful age discrimination that they’re guilty of…

There are more surviving mainframe families than just IBM and Unisys:

- Groupe Bull still supports GCOS mainframes (descended from General Electric GECOS)

- NEC still supports ACOS mainframes (also descended from General Electric GECOS, but a different fork from Bull's) – only sold/used in Japan now, although in past decades NEC did attempt to sell them outside of Japan (not sure if anyone bought them though)

- Fujitsu still supports ICL VME mainframes (still used by some UK government agencies) and BS2000/OSD (still used in Germany mainly)

- I think some Fujitsu MSP and Hitachi VOS3 systems survive in Japan. (These are less than 100% compatible forks of IBM MVS.) They also used to exist in some other countries–e.g. here in Australia, although I doubt any are left here.

Re: Mainframes Are Having a Moment

#60

Post by AnimalMuppet »

skissane wrote: post #59
pinewurst wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unisys represents two different mainframe families - those descending from Univac/Sperry 1100 and those descending from the Burroughs mainframes. Both are purely emulated on x64 these days. Personally I think the latter are especially interesting, much more so than IBM! IBM is really going with whatever positive publicity they can muster trying to obscure the profoundly awful age discrimination that they’re guilty of…

There are more surviving mainframe families than just IBM and Unisys: - Groupe Bull still supports GCOS mainframes (descended from General Electric GECOS) - NEC still supports ACOS mainframes (also descended from General Electric GECOS, but a different fork from Bull's) – only sold/used in Japan now, although in past decades NEC did attempt to sell them outside of Japan (not sure if anyone bought them though) - Fujit…

I notice that you repeatedly say "still supports". Do any of them still manufacture and sell those lines?
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