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Covid-19’s impact on Tor

blog.torproject.org

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Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#161

Post by [deleted] »

modwest wrote: post #85
goodrubyist wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah, took me some time to digest this -- "contextualize liberties" must be the most Orwellian phrase in existence, only thing that might come close is another phrase you used, "civil rights absolutism."

The famous “yelling fire in a crowded theory” test for free speech is an example of contextualizing liberties. There is nothing truly Orwellian about it. “Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins” is another example. Society is a context where we exercise our liberties.

[deleted]

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#162

Post by modwest »

losvedir wrote: post #118
modwest wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The famous “yelling fire in a crowded theory” test for free speech is an example of contextualizing liberties. There is nothing truly Orwellian about it. “Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins” is another example. Society is a context where we exercise our liberties.

"Yelling fire in a crowded theater" is a great example because it comes from a horrible Supreme Court ruling defending the arrest of someone handing out anti-war pamphlets. I can't think of a better example of something that should be protected speech, or a better example of how "reasonable" limits will get abused. Fortunately, that ruling has been mostly overturned by now.

A great example of..?

This comment seems more like you taking an opportunity to flex on someone in a comment instead of refuting my underlying point. That’s great the ruling this saying was used in was overturned (I’m taking your word for it) but citing that fact completely misses the point...

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#163

Post by Noos »

anigbrowl wrote: post #57
burrows wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does “public” mean in this context? And if you want this thing, why don’t you make it?

Public means non-profit and wholly transparent, explicitly dedicated to the creation and expansion of a software commons. It infuriates me that people who work on important projects like numpy or Tor which are very widely used have trouble paying the bills and keeping a roof over their head. I don't make it because I don't work in the software industry and don't have access to large social or financial capital networ…

The problem is that this what you get when you make a commons without reciprocity or equality.

Reciprocity means the producer/upkeeper and consumer each put something into the commons that balances out mutual needs. if only a few people can create or maintain, the many users must contribute in a lesser fashion to enable them.

Equality means that everyone create or maintain, so the burden isn't shared on a small group. If we are all farmers, we can each handle a share of a common field.

But this kind of commons is asymmetrical, and that's why you'll never see people pay the bills anywhere near close to the need. This kind of common can really only be noblesse oblige, where people with abundant resources give charity. It isn't, so people struggle.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#164

Post by mikeg8 »

93po wrote: post #69
mikeg8 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. I looked it up out of curiosity... 1995. 25 years in tech is basically a lifetime ago. Has it changed much?

They've made it a point to not change, which is frankly refreshing. It works perfectly fine as is for what 99% of people use it for

Again, totally agree. But are you arguing that not changing/innovating, while refreshing, should be considered tech? I associate tech with innovation and trying something new. Zero to One.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#166

Post by humaniania »

wegs wrote: post #129
nbar1 wrote: post #125

I feel for the people at Tor who were let go. My company was in the same position and I was unfortunately on the list of people who had their position terminated. While I am upset that I am now unemployed I also can understand how a company can be put in a difficult position during this time. I will survive, and I hope they do too.

I feel bad for the spiral here. We're now seeing the second-order of the depression spiral. * First step was laying off people without jobs which could be done remotely. * Second step is laying off people who could still be productive from home, but where there's less demand. Unless we act with boldness and resoluteness, this will just continue to feed in on itself as the nation collapses.

Do you have any sort of science or statistics to back that up are you making fatalistic statements based on emotion?

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#167

Post by geofft »

specialist wrote: post #87
dmix wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ACLU changed their policy of supporting everyone against any freedom of speech and freedom of assembly repression by the government AFTER Charlottesville. That only supports the OP's point. That was the point they gave into to pressure from outside groups and gave up their values. Compromising once is enough to compromise it always and their recent posturing on social media has done nothing to dissuade that this is t…

Though I remain conflicted with their choices, I sympathize. Generosity, credulity, principle will always be exploited. I have no idea how anyone can safeguard against bad faith.

There's two kinds of bad faith here, I think.

One kind of bad faith is that of the Illinois Nazis. Obviously, had they succeeded in their political goals, the ACLU would be purged and fundamental civil rights would be abridged for all but the chosen race. Still, they had a valid free speech concern, and the ACLU believed in a society where anyone could conduct a march, even if the Nazis didn't and were being hypocritical. So even though the ACLU was helping a group who was more than ready to backstab them, the ACLU was still able to accomplish its own goals. The general-case interest of the ACLU in protecting everyone's right to protest lined up with the specific-case interest of the Nazis in protecting their own right to protest.

The other kind of bad faith is that of Unite the Right, which was not being denied the right to rally - only the right to rally in a physically easier-to-control space, and which had not raised concerns because of the content of their messaging but because of the pro-violence groups that were participating. As a result of the bad faith, the ACLU was duped into believing there was a threat to civil rights, which there was not, and they were coopted into assisting the organizers with a goal that they didn't actually agree with.

I agree that it's hard to tell, but in the case of Unite the Right, opposing activists had been warning (with evidence) that the plan of the rally was to create conditions for violence and that their goals weren't merely speaking and peaceably assemblling. In the Skokie case, there were no such concerns. I even think it's reasonable for the ACLU to have gotten it wrong - provided they did a retrospective on how they got it wrong (that was not merely "we shouldn't defend neo-Nazis anymore"), which to the best of my knowledge they didn't do.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#168

Post by sowithit »

Renaud wrote: post #19

They are too dependent on government sponsorship. 80% of their funding comes from the US government in some shape. I would imagine that a project of that importance deserves to be able to be self-sufficient. A US$2M budget/year is not that much, (m|b)illionaires making their money from the Internet could easily sponsor the project. Better yet, having grass-root sponsorship is even more important. Maybe they need mark…

Ironically, if they had more government sponsorship, they may be having fewer financial problems now. Government grant programs have multi-year contracts, and the agencies have yearly budgets. The government money is still flowing. It's the private money, from foundations and individuals, that has suddenly become unavailable due to declines in income and wealth.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#169

Post by zipwitch »

tchaffee wrote: post #152
zipwitch wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I reject the presumptions that the only possible response is a unitary authority and that we shouldn't do anything in response because any such response is automatically going to be bad. Come, on, this is Hacker News ! Why do we have to have a single central authority? We ought to at least be willing to speculate about AI-mediated Blockchains of Truth that reward factually accurate reporting. Or about ways to smoothl…

The options you described just leave us with a less direct version of what we have now. Someone owns and runs media companies because it is a source of influence and income. Someone will run the AI-mediated Blockchains of Truth, etc for the same reasons. All you will accomplish is shifting the power around momentarily, perhaps even to worse actors than we have now. But even if your ideas are very vague they are at le…

Which is fine. It's a tough problem, and I have no expectation that a random poster (myself included) is going to suddenly come up with a perfect solution. As we search for solutions, there are at least two fallacious lines of reasoning that need to be rejected:

Something must be done. This is something. This must be done!

And,

This won't work. Therefore, nothing will work. We should do nothing!

I understand and agree with those who reject the first. But turning from the first only to embrace the second is also a mistake.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#170

Post by fierarul »

maallooc wrote: post #133
fierarul wrote: post #130

This announcement makes no sense. You do not have 35 employees without some sort of stable budget. Seems very unlikely the budget changed so much in the past few months that you have to reduce your headcount by 40%! Then they even mention that they expect Tor to be even more relevant in the coming period. Well, now would be a good time to keep the people, work on the product and show how relevant it is. Very little s…

The fact is, they post their numbers every year. You can download their annual audit reports. They just did not state those numbers on this article. And this layoff is not because the budget changed now, it’s to prepare for that. Don’t demand to be spoonfed, just pay attention little more.

Yeah, right.

One should expect transparency from little startups showing us their monthly revenue and such. We have to wait for the yearly audited reports to get a small glimpse into the world of non-profits.

I've read a few of these reports to know they are generally useless or well hidden.

It's early April. I'll just quietly wait another 8 months to see how their financials changed.

Or I could hunt down previous reports, see their revenue, infer their operating costs (assuming they didn't hire any new people), then guesstimate how their projected revenue is altered to much as to require a 40% headcount change.

Or maybe, just maybe, a non-profit could have posted this info.

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