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Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

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Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#61

Post by Taek »

WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 wrote: post #6

I don't consider myself an expert here, but I believe there are few or no problems that only blockchain technology can solve. Rather, it's about how it solves problems. If you solve a problem with non-blockchain technology, you will get a centralized entity of some kind. Be it a bank, a SaaS service, a social network, a database, or whatever. Sure, it can be open source, but it's still centralized in one way or anoth…

A well-run, transparent, centralized entity can easily become an opaque and corrupted entity over time.

A well designed decentralized system will maintain its integrity indefinitely. In practice we've only really seen this play out with Bitcoin so far, but that's because the space is young and people still haven't really gotten their heads around the exact strengths and weaknesses of a blockchain.

Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#62

Post by rich_sasha »

Blockchain has one genius product: cryptocurrencies. They totally have a use, by technology enthusiasts, people with deep distrust of governments, and last but not least, criminals. You can’t have a trustless, decentralised currency using other technologies at present.

As for other applications, yeah they are all made up so far. And anticipating any other comments, the world could easily do without cryptocurrencies.

Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#63

Post by Taek »

chpmrc wrote: post #57

Git uses, in fact, a "blockchain". There's no mining involved (although, given how hard some code reviews can get I'd argue there is still "proof of work" lol) and anyone can create new blocks and is free to accept or reject them. Like someone else already said I think it's less about the "blockchain" and more about finding ways to decentralize traditionally centralized services.

I really don't like the idea that a blockchain is just a chain of objects that commit to eachother by hashing. That is not what anyone in the industry is referring to when they say "blockchain".

A blockchain is a trust minimizing, independent network which allows participants to interact with eachother such that:

1. Everybody knows who did what, in what order 2. Significant confidence exists that the order is fixed / finalized (git can't give you this) 3. There is no set of controlling parties that could reasonably be expected to change the rules of the system, even if they were all trying to work together.

When someone says "blockchains are going to change the world", they are talking about the above three properties, not about the ability to commit to a thing that commits to other things.

Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#64

Post by blablabla123 »

Paid services that require billing in unreliable networks. If IOTA had a high quality implementation, it would be really useful I think. (Obviously it suffers severe problems, both on the spec and implementation side since years; and they are slow to fix them) On the other hand, I think "standard blockchain" isn't enough. I'm no expert but mainstream blockchain solutions have some not so nice properties: processing power/energy waste, vulnerability to 50% attacks, slow processing.

That said, cryptographically signed GDPR conforming Event sourcing might be a good idea. I wonder if that would still count as blockchain though.

Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#65

Post by keiferski »

Avalaxy wrote: post #49
keiferski wrote: post #35

Blockchain has existed as a widespread technology for what, a little over a decade now? And people are already proclaiming its fundamental uselessness? Seems like a massive lack of patience and long term thinking. It took nearly a century for the first airplane to go anywhere and another half-century for it to be widespread and practical.

For information technology that's really long. It didn't take us 10+ years to find a useful purpose for smartphones or the internet. If for many years so much money is thrown at it and so many intelligent people are working at it and nothing fundamental comes it, I think it's safe to conclude that it's nearly useless.

Sorry but again, dismissing something based on barely over a decade of data is incredibly shortsighted. The economic success of a technology isn’t a recipe that merely requires capital and intelligent people. That isn’t how history works.

Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#66

Post by chrisco255 »

amelius wrote: post #58
chrisco255 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if Government-run blockchains become the norm, they'll be able to dictate whatever you spend your money on and you'll have no recourse. There will be no cash alternative. China's social credit system is a perfect example, also shown in Black Mirror. If governments can have control over both behavior and spending in such a way, they own you. You're in 1984.

Ok, but why wouldn't governments simply prohibit the use of these systems then? It seems easy to do because anyone wanting to pay or be paid has to somehow advertise this.

Some will, some won't. The ones that don't will win the 21st century. The ones who embrace draconian measures and disincentivize innovation to protect stale and outdated institutions will lose big time.

Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#67

Post by WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 »

Taek wrote: post #61
WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 wrote: post #6

I don't consider myself an expert here, but I believe there are few or no problems that only blockchain technology can solve. Rather, it's about how it solves problems. If you solve a problem with non-blockchain technology, you will get a centralized entity of some kind. Be it a bank, a SaaS service, a social network, a database, or whatever. Sure, it can be open source, but it's still centralized in one way or anoth…

A well-run, transparent, centralized entity can easily become an opaque and corrupted entity over time. A well designed decentralized system will maintain its integrity indefinitely. In practice we've only really seen this play out with Bitcoin so far, but that's because the space is young and people still haven't really gotten their heads around the exact strengths and weaknesses of a blockchain.

> A well-run, transparent, centralized entity can easily become an opaque and corrupted entity over time.

And the opposite can also happen. Humans are good at quickly adapting to circumstances and fixing "bugs" in organizations through firing/hiring, new organizational structures, or other means. That's what markets do.

A "perfectly designed" decentralized system may be superior, but I don't believe it's possible to perfectly design an incentive structure from the get-go. The world is incredibly complex, and once you have a bug or mistake in your decentralized system, it's doomed because it can be exploited. There are already countless examples of various tokens and blockchains being hacked/exploited. A centralized, human-led organization is less efficient, but more resilient to such things.

This is similar to the AI question. Are you willing to put your full trust into a system with dynamics not fully understood, or do you put your trust into humans running centralized systems? By "not fully understood" I don't mean the algorithms, but the emergent behavior of an incentive structure, which is incredibly complex because it deals with human agents.

Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#68

Post by detaro »

Taek wrote: post #63
chpmrc wrote: post #57

Git uses, in fact, a "blockchain". There's no mining involved (although, given how hard some code reviews can get I'd argue there is still "proof of work" lol) and anyone can create new blocks and is free to accept or reject them. Like someone else already said I think it's less about the "blockchain" and more about finding ways to decentralize traditionally centralized services.

I really don't like the idea that a blockchain is just a chain of objects that commit to eachother by hashing. That is not what anyone in the industry is referring to when they say "blockchain". A blockchain is a trust minimizing, independent network which allows participants to interact with eachother such that: 1. Everybody knows who did what, in what order 2. Significant confidence exists that the order is fixed /…

All the "private blockchain" things seem to not have 3. by design? (but their proponents typically are quite bad at providing clear explanations, so I might be misunderstanding what's going on there)

Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#69

Post by ankit219 »

The Telecom Regulatory Authority of India (TRAI) has used blockchain based solution to curb spam calls and messages. (Slightly old link here: https://www.livemint.com/Industry/RRuPzidooMxh8pspZhTlrI/Tra...)

India has a huge problem with spam calls and messages (not so much in times of Corona, work from home, and lockdown) and how the phone numbers of users are obtained. There are lists of emails and phone numbers that is bought and sold in an informal market too. There is no first hand record of consent about whether or not any registered entity can call or message me. Almost everyone receives messages and calls from unsolicited numbers asking to buy insurance, loan, or a credit card. Its a huge problem so much that an average customer would get 2-3 calls a day. TRAI tried to curb it earlier with a DND mechanism, but that did not work given it is very easy to register a new handle, and no easy way report a caller/message sender.

What they are proposing is to have consent in a blockchain is that there would always be one final state. I dont know much but it means only registered telemarketers would be allowed to call and to only those where consent is explicit and recorded in the blockchain. No mining but seems like an effective solution on paper.

More links: https://m.economictimes.com/industry/telecom/telecom-news/bl...

This is a presentation on the same: https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Regional-Presence/AsiaPacific/S... (cant verify the date, apologies)

Re: Ask HN: Are there any substantial examples of blockchain solving a real problem?

#70

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

Taek wrote: post #61
WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 wrote: post #6

I don't consider myself an expert here, but I believe there are few or no problems that only blockchain technology can solve. Rather, it's about how it solves problems. If you solve a problem with non-blockchain technology, you will get a centralized entity of some kind. Be it a bank, a SaaS service, a social network, a database, or whatever. Sure, it can be open source, but it's still centralized in one way or anoth…

A well-run, transparent, centralized entity can easily become an opaque and corrupted entity over time. A well designed decentralized system will maintain its integrity indefinitely. In practice we've only really seen this play out with Bitcoin so far, but that's because the space is young and people still haven't really gotten their heads around the exact strengths and weaknesses of a blockchain.

> A well designed decentralized system will maintain its integrity indefinitely.

That’s a giant leap of faith.

If the system is maintainable it is also corruptible.

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