Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I’m Leaving Elm

lukeplant.me.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

441–450 of 450 posts

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#441

Post by nathanasmith »

orestarod wrote: post #438
nathanasmith wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the idea that most people are nice to some people, and not nice to others is a generally accepted premise. Nothing I said implied I disagreed with that "premise" and it seems bizarre how what I did say could somehow lead to your non sequitur of an answer. At any rate, what should have been obvious I was taking exception to was the idea that "plenty of people are overly polite because it inflates their ego to…

Like you said, anyone's motivation for their actions can be questioned. Everyone's motives are questionable. I don't think an article is needed to argue about that. I, personally, am kind to many people just because it is troublesome not to be, or to extract specific behaviors as a return. I managed to get a driving license without bribing (bribing for that is standard practice here), because I was so overly polite a…

I'm frankly not buying this lazy argument. The assertion that "plenty of people are overly polite because it inflates their ego to be perceived as polite" is bullshit. In it's general form it's no more than a convenient tool to disparage those you don't like. Dislike a person but lack a rational or socially acceptable way to criticize them? Easy, just use this prebaked phrasing to cast any exhibited behavior negatively. Imagine somebody doesn't like happy/serious/polite/flirty/whatever people. Then to them happy/serious/polite/flirty/whatever people are just acting happy/serious/polite/flirty/whatever to be perceived that way as an ego boost. It's an absurdly reductive cynical word game when you need to hate but can't come up with anything substantive. The argument's unprovability short of mind reading and its applicableness to anything (and anything's opposite!) removes any intellectual rigor as it careers completely over the side of "proving" too much. Vacuous rhetorical flourish trotted out in the middle of discussion to target anything the opponent says or does as mere self-aggrandizement. Seductive if one goes for that kind of sophistry however the reality of human motivation does not resemble this arbitrarily contrived model of, to echo the GP, ego inflation. Here's the real reason people seem "overly" polite: a combination of cultural norms, fear, being non-confrontational, and power dynamics. As simple as it is.

I know that some people are willing to go through much mental gymnastics to justify hate and derision while seeing themselves as virtuous but had no idea this mean spirited belief pattern was at all pervasive here, however this discussion has led me to revise that belief. It's sickening but rather than continue to get worked up I'll just log out for another 6 month hiatus like I've done before when this community gets a little too high off its own farts. Hopefully things will be better, folks a little less stir crazy in October. Later.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#442

Post by G4BB3R »

I can't believe people are still complaining about something that happened almost 2 years ago for a good reason, or even about Elm not having typeclasses, or worst, for elm-format using 4 spaces, that is pointless. And I personally prefer Elm the way it is, with typeclasses the compilation speed and error messages wouldn't be the way it is now. There is already Purescript for those who need typeclasses and better js ffi, no need to follow the same path. In the next few years Elm will have everything we need as pure elm, and libs with great quality.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#443

Post by lolc »

hnbroseph wrote: post #428
lolc wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take Java as a point of reference, since you brought it up. Imagine the JDK were opinionated about which authors were allowed to write packages that use FFI. And people wanting to use it would be instructed to build a relationship to said authors to get their code blessed to use FFI. It is wholly inconceivable. I'm sure you'd see quite a few "Leaving Java" posts over it.

your scenario isn't all that different from how the jdk authors view the use of internal classes, like sun.misc.unsafe.

Here's what Oracle says[0]: "Technically, nothing prevents your program from calling into sun.* by name." And I don't think I ever accessed sun.* when writing Java. So the example seems both ill-suited and far-fetched to me.

One of the first things I did in Elm was writing a tiny JS snippet to get a missing piece from the browser. It was something I needed and my site wouldn't have worked without it. I later switched to the Elm implementation once that became available.

Now given the stated goals of the Elm project, I will be unable to repeat this. Which means I expect I'd be stuck if I again wanted to access the browser API before the Elm people got around to implement that part. And that wholly changes my view of the project.

I'm using Elm for a toy project. If I'm blocked, I go do something else. What a pity though.

[0] https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/faq-sun-packages.ht...

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#444

Post by lucamug »

save_ferris wrote: post #5

> For example, if there is a bug in any core library, or something missing, you just have to wait for the core team to fix it, rather than being able to fix it yourself. You might need a performance fix, which can be done using Javascript but not in Elm (lack of destructive updates makes some things very hard to implement efficiently), and again you will be stuck having to explain to your boss “I know this is possibl…

We are using Elm in production for almost a year and I never had a situation where a bug was blocking us. Do you have any example?

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#445

Post by lucamug »

holtalanm wrote: post #8
save_ferris wrote: post #5

> For example, if there is a bug in any core library, or something missing, you just have to wait for the core team to fix it, rather than being able to fix it yourself. You might need a performance fix, which can be done using Javascript but not in Elm (lack of destructive updates makes some things very hard to implement efficiently), and again you will be stuck having to explain to your boss “I know this is possibl…

this is, at least, consistent with my experience using elm on a side project. Dropped elm like a hot potato when I hit that wall. frustrating, too, because I was really enjoying the language, and everything about it up to that point. The tooling support for Elm is REALLY solid compared to some other functional compile-to-js languages out there. If anyone is looking for a good functional compile-to-js language, I woul…

What happened that made you hit the wall?

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#447

Post by marcus_holmes »

samatman wrote: post #254
dkersten wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep! If people used tabs, then everyone can display it how they like and these stupid discussions wouldn’t be necessary. Alas, for some reason the world has rallied behind spaces. Sigh.

My main objection to using tabs has always been that the Tab key is heavily overloaded: it navigates (one Tab press to move the cursor to the correct indentation point), selects (tab completion), and it puts a variable-width character into my monospace-defined text file. I'd rather drop the insertion part and have my editor handle adding an appropriate number of spaces. Let me add this: there's actually nothing stopp…

yeah, but then your Version Control system thinks that you changed the file and it needs to commit that change.

Which is a ton more hassle than inserting tabs.

You could always make CapsLock insert a tab character so you keep the functions of the tab key separate from inserting a tab.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#448

Post by scottchewie »

olvn wrote: post #198

I've used Elm professionally for about a year, having done full rewrites of both a bloated React/Redux SPA and a map data visualizer with complex JS interop using ports to Leaflet, AWS Cognito, etc. Luke Plant's blog post doesn't at all reflect my experiences with Elm or my feelings about the core team. For those not privy to the Elm tea, a brief primer: this blog post is primarily concerning a months-old issue regar…

I am only a hobbyist user of Elm, but the original post also made me sad.

Here's an interview from 2017 with Evan where he discusses Elm's approach to interop. https://elmtown.simplecast.fm/b06499a6 Skip to about 8.5 minutes in.

While Luke's approach certainly could have been better, I don't think it had any bearing on the result. The reason for not allowing Javascript into Elm libraries seems fundamental to what Elm is trying to achieve.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#449

Post by rexpop »

ng12 wrote: post #175
SrslyJosh wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. Being asked to use inclusive language is a weird thing to complain about, especially as the very first example you give. > And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incessantly in their writing, it's like some weird cult. I use "folks" and other non-gendered langu…

Any personal behavior becomes cultish when it's other people dictating you adopt them.

Which is specifically the circumstance abnegated by the post to which you're replying.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#450

Post by dbrgn »

progre wrote: post #346
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn’t take your opinions on things from HN discussions that claim that Rust is changing quickly, and then are only able to point out 3 things over 5 years that have changed.

I don't. Crate authors seems to be playing catch up to, or more likely, abandon their old work. I'ts really hard coming in to Rust to get a feel for what to use in any given situation as the crates are either dead or in alpha.

Can you point to any evidence that abandoned crates are abandoned due to language changes (as opposed to lost interest by the author, for example)?

Code written for Rust 1.0 will most probably still work perfectly fine today.

Post reply on HN