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Covid-19’s impact on Tor

blog.torproject.org

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Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#91

Post by nisuni »

modwest wrote: post #85
goodrubyist wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah, took me some time to digest this -- "contextualize liberties" must be the most Orwellian phrase in existence, only thing that might come close is another phrase you used, "civil rights absolutism."

The famous “yelling fire in a crowded theory” test for free speech is an example of contextualizing liberties. There is nothing truly Orwellian about it. “Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins” is another example. Society is a context where we exercise our liberties.

The yelling fire example is an extreme edge case, and it’s usually used by people who would like to limit freedom of speech much more than that.

I’ve never heard it being used genuinely not even once.

I find it irritating: you don’t want freedom of speech? State than openly and tell me why.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#92

Post by ksml »

nisuni wrote: post #91
modwest wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The famous “yelling fire in a crowded theory” test for free speech is an example of contextualizing liberties. There is nothing truly Orwellian about it. “Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins” is another example. Society is a context where we exercise our liberties.

The yelling fire example is an extreme edge case, and it’s usually used by people who would like to limit freedom of speech much more than that. I’ve never heard it being used genuinely not even once. I find it irritating: you don’t want freedom of speech? State than openly and tell me why.

Yeah, I don't want unlimited freedom of speech. Some types of speech are harmful with little benefit, from my perspective. I don't see the justification for making it permissible to yell "fire" in a movie theater.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#93

Post by nisuni »

ksml wrote: post #92
nisuni wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The yelling fire example is an extreme edge case, and it’s usually used by people who would like to limit freedom of speech much more than that. I’ve never heard it being used genuinely not even once. I find it irritating: you don’t want freedom of speech? State than openly and tell me why.

Yeah, I don't want unlimited freedom of speech. Some types of speech are harmful with little benefit, from my perspective. I don't see the justification for making it permissible to yell "fire" in a movie theater.

As I have already told you the yelling fire thing is essentially a rhetorical device, that has been used to promote suppression of free speech to a much larger extent.

I don’t think I even care, but please be honest about it and tell people why and what you would ban.

I am sure that, like every one using the arguments you are using, you would suppress free speech much more than that!

Be open and direct, we still have free speech my friend!

No need to hide between rhetorical devices.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#94

Post by Izkata »

nisuni wrote: post #91
modwest wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The famous “yelling fire in a crowded theory” test for free speech is an example of contextualizing liberties. There is nothing truly Orwellian about it. “Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins” is another example. Society is a context where we exercise our liberties.

The yelling fire example is an extreme edge case, and it’s usually used by people who would like to limit freedom of speech much more than that. I’ve never heard it being used genuinely not even once. I find it irritating: you don’t want freedom of speech? State than openly and tell me why.

The yelling fire one was (partially) overturned in court in 1969. Such speech can now only be limited if it would incite imminent lawless action (such as a riot), and so that example does not count.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#95

Post by samatman »

burrows wrote: post #60
samatman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone knows that there's a huge gap between wanting something to exist, and wanting something to exist, while having the expertise, time, resources, and will, to bring it into existence. Since you know this as well as I do, I want to ask: what is your motive in asking this question?

First, I dig your meditation on Forth and the Dao that won’t be named. > what is your motive in asking this question? To provoke OP into debugging me.

thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#96

Post by totalZero »

I was hoping this would be an analysis of changes in usage patterns.

System identification may be easier (and privacy thus worse) now that the network topology is more static, as people move around less due to the virus.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#97

Post by mixologic »

nisuni wrote: post #91
modwest wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The famous “yelling fire in a crowded theory” test for free speech is an example of contextualizing liberties. There is nothing truly Orwellian about it. “Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins” is another example. Society is a context where we exercise our liberties.

The yelling fire example is an extreme edge case, and it’s usually used by people who would like to limit freedom of speech much more than that. I’ve never heard it being used genuinely not even once. I find it irritating: you don’t want freedom of speech? State than openly and tell me why.

Absolute freedom of speech is equally as detrimental to society as totalitarian government censorship. Propaganda, misinformation, and outright lies can convincingly be passed off as truth. The vast majority of the populace neither has the time, nor the inclination to properly vet, research, and confirm the information that is presented to them. Humans rarely acknowledge their own confirmation biases, which makes it trivial to manipulate the so called "marketplace of ideas". We're now beginning to see the myriad detrimental effects of an absolutist free speech society. Political troll bots manipulate opinions and sow discord. A huge slice of the United States relies on a reality warping "news" network that claims the right to fabricate falsehoods under the banner of free speech. Algorithms that feed users content send people down rabbit holes of extremist information fomenting groups of fervent believers in utter nonsense like "The Earth is flat", because the algorithms naively equate "engagement time" with value/truth.

Freedom of speech is a spectrum, and neither extreme of that spectrum is beneficial to a healthy society.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#98

Post by andrepd »

goodrubyist wrote: post #75
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU has largely transitioned away from civil rights absolutism towards progressive advocacy. They haven't entirely tossed it out the door, and still sometimes defend the civil rights of non-progressive groups, but the modern ACLU definitely feels it's important to contextualize liberties.

Woah, took me some time to digest this -- "contextualize liberties" must be the most Orwellian phrase in existence, only thing that might come close is another phrase you used, "civil rights absolutism."

It really is not. Right to physical assembly is something that should be restricted in the middle of a global pandemic, since that right cannot trump the right of life of hundreds of thousands of people. Same for the right to travel. Rights such as free speech or right to private property may be broken in more extreme cases such as war.

Pretending that nuanced reality doesn't exist is the definition of "rights absolutism".

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#99

Post by valvar »

nisuni wrote: post #93
ksml wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't want unlimited freedom of speech. Some types of speech are harmful with little benefit, from my perspective. I don't see the justification for making it permissible to yell "fire" in a movie theater.

As I have already told you the yelling fire thing is essentially a rhetorical device, that has been used to promote suppression of free speech to a much larger extent. I don’t think I even care, but please be honest about it and tell people why and what you would ban. I am sure that, like every one using the arguments you are using, you would suppress free speech much more than that! Be open and direct, we still have…

It always comes down to censoring those you disagree with. Everyone loves free speech when it expresses views they agree with. If it's about silly edge cases, no-one really cares - the only reason to care is if it has political implications, regardless of if you are for or against suppression.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#100

Post by papito »

93po wrote: post #69
mikeg8 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. I looked it up out of curiosity... 1995. 25 years in tech is basically a lifetime ago. Has it changed much?

They've made it a point to not change, which is frankly refreshing. It works perfectly fine as is for what 99% of people use it for

You mean something so popular did not migrate to React and Serverless yet? HOW DOES IT EVEN WORK?!!!
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