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Covid-19’s impact on Tor

blog.torproject.org

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Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#61

Post by burrows »

anigbrowl wrote: post #57
burrows wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does “public” mean in this context? And if you want this thing, why don’t you make it?

Public means non-profit and wholly transparent, explicitly dedicated to the creation and expansion of a software commons. It infuriates me that people who work on important projects like numpy or Tor which are very widely used have trouble paying the bills and keeping a roof over their head. I don't make it because I don't work in the software industry and don't have access to large social or financial capital networ…

> It infuriates me that people who work on important projects like numpy or Tor which are very widely used have trouble paying the bills and keeping a roof over their head.

Donate money to projects you care about. Persuade your friends to donate.

> I don't make it because I don't work in the software industry and don't have access to large social or financial capital networks.

What’s the plan for getting the doers onboard? Pay them? Persuade them to work for free? Persuade the government to tax someone else to fund them?

Or are we just shouting about things we don’t like? Because let me tell you about low quality leather goods...

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#62

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

roenxi wrote: post #56
duckMuppet wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's far more important to have the ACLU working on advocacy and rights for LGBTQ+ where there are demonstrable acts of violence and systemic oppression rather than waste time hand holding individuals who think they should be able purchase an Arsenal of firearms and spread Covid by not obeying and respecting their fellow citizens through their non compliance. I'd say they are definitely where they need to be.. I…

So just quickly glancing at Wikipedia [0] it looks like most of the major line items for the LGBTQ+ agenda have been part of US Federal law for about 5+ years. The LGBTQ+ community are basically ordinary people from all walks of life, including prominent names like Tim Cook and Pete Buttigieg. The community has I believe explicit public support from culture generating machines like Hollywood and political entities li…

There are still a few residual gay rights issues, but over the past few years, LGBTQ+ rights has come to primarily refer to trans rights. One of the ACLU's major recent campaigns is that trans girls should be allowed to play on girls' sports teams, for example - that's seen as an important right nowadays, but it's not on the checklist because it was never relevant for gay people.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#63

Post by 93po »

mikeg8 wrote: post #55
Renaud wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craigslist is a sponsor, so not all tech companies think that way.

Craigslist isn’t a tech company. It’s a website. Not trying to disrespect them as I’m sure they do some impressive stuff behind the scenes to handle scale, I just don't feel they’re innovating in a way to be called “tech”.

Craiglist was innovative when it started.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#64

Post by dmix »

geofft wrote: post #59
dmix wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unite the Right wasn't primarily about speech, it was about violence This is easy to say with retrospect. How many other major protests in history would you have compromised had you known there would be violence? Any embedded provocateur could easily kill any protest. Any extremist portion of any political group, no matter how small, could kill the mainstream purpose of the wider legitimate group. I'd much rather w…

I think it was clear in advance of Unite the Right that many of the groups actively invited by the organizer were interested in violence. This wasn't embedded provocateurs or out-of-control extremists. Furthermore, Charlottesville didn't deny Unite the Right a permit - they just offered them a permit at a different location than what they wanted. Obviously the organizer didn't go to court and say, "I would like the r…

> This wasn't embedded provocateurs or out-of-control extremists.

I never said it was. And that completely misses the point on why it's important. (surprise: you don't have to defend Charlottesville to defend the ACLU)

You're basically providing anyone an easy tool to kill any protest before it gets off the ground.

Any protest where antifa plays a role would be DOA (and having attending my fair share that's at least ~50% of the major ones)... do you think all the human rights, union, indigenous, etc groups control which protests Antifa shows up at? Should they have to self-regulate their protests so no one shows up wearing all-black is allowed to participate?

Anyway you're free to stop supporting ACLU if you prefer a political-driven legal group. I'm sure they exist. ACLU lost 30,000 members after Spokane but was still a force to be reckoned with for decades. I'm just saddened to see this short-term thinking also infecting lawyer groups and famous rights-defending academic institutions. I'm not surprised to see it in the media, Reddit, and elsewhere where higher values aren't embedded in their purpose.

The courts should always be the last line of defence and at a minimum should be immune from politics. Without politically neutral legal defence groups the world will be far worse off than the benefits of stopping a few nazis from protesting.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#65

Post by Talanes »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #49
duckMuppet wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's far more important to have the ACLU working on advocacy and rights for LGBTQ+ where there are demonstrable acts of violence and systemic oppression rather than waste time hand holding individuals who think they should be able purchase an Arsenal of firearms and spread Covid by not obeying and respecting their fellow citizens through their non compliance. I'd say they are definitely where they need to be.. I…

Right, this is the kind of position I was referring to. The modern ACLU tends to direct their attention towards specific identity groups they feel are most deserving. I don't think they're quite as far along that path as you are - I can't imagine an ACLU representative implying you have a civic duty to unquestioningly accept the government's pandemic control measures - but maybe I'm wrong.

I wonder if they're just avoiding it as a tactical thing. Lawsuits aren't the quickest form of change, they might just not see any path to actually moving on those questions before they become moot. If they're planning for the long term, it might make more sense to see which forms of government overreach stick around too long.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#66

Post by mikeg8 »

93po wrote: post #63
mikeg8 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craigslist isn’t a tech company. It’s a website. Not trying to disrespect them as I’m sure they do some impressive stuff behind the scenes to handle scale, I just don't feel they’re innovating in a way to be called “tech”.

Craiglist was innovative when it started.

Totally agree. I looked it up out of curiosity... 1995. 25 years in tech is basically a lifetime ago. Has it changed much?

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#67

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

Talanes wrote: post #65
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, this is the kind of position I was referring to. The modern ACLU tends to direct their attention towards specific identity groups they feel are most deserving. I don't think they're quite as far along that path as you are - I can't imagine an ACLU representative implying you have a civic duty to unquestioningly accept the government's pandemic control measures - but maybe I'm wrong.

I wonder if they're just avoiding it as a tactical thing. Lawsuits aren't the quickest form of change, they might just not see any path to actually moving on those questions before they become moot. If they're planning for the long term, it might make more sense to see which forms of government overreach stick around too long.

I think that's the most likely scenario, but I'm not sure the implied tactics are actually accurate - many religious groups have been able to get swift injunctions.

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#68

Post by _8j50 »

justnotworthit wrote: post #37
Renaud wrote: post #19

They are too dependent on government sponsorship. 80% of their funding comes from the US government in some shape. I would imagine that a project of that importance deserves to be able to be self-sufficient. A US$2M budget/year is not that much, (m|b)illionaires making their money from the Internet could easily sponsor the project. Better yet, having grass-root sponsorship is even more important. Maybe they need mark…

I work on a project depended upon and repeatedly promoted by Snowden (tweets) and less-than-public-figures-who-lives-depend-on-it (pastebins). We gave up writing grant proposals. After repeatedly pouring hours into crafting proposals exactly as specified, the big one (no plural) OTF (.gov funding) has never responded. The smaller, more informal ones aren't interested as well (no clue why). What little OTF money there…

How can the US IC benefit from your project? That's #1

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#69

Post by 93po »

mikeg8 wrote: post #66
93po wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craiglist was innovative when it started.

Totally agree. I looked it up out of curiosity... 1995. 25 years in tech is basically a lifetime ago. Has it changed much?

They've made it a point to not change, which is frankly refreshing. It works perfectly fine as is for what 99% of people use it for

Re: Covid-19’s impact on Tor

#70

Post by geofft »

dmix wrote: post #64
geofft wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was clear in advance of Unite the Right that many of the groups actively invited by the organizer were interested in violence. This wasn't embedded provocateurs or out-of-control extremists. Furthermore, Charlottesville didn't deny Unite the Right a permit - they just offered them a permit at a different location than what they wanted. Obviously the organizer didn't go to court and say, "I would like the r…

> This wasn't embedded provocateurs or out-of-control extremists. I never said it was. And that completely misses the point on why it's important. (surprise: you don't have to defend Charlottesville to defend the ACLU) You're basically providing anyone an easy tool to kill any protest before it gets off the ground. Any protest where antifa plays a role would be DOA (and having attending my fair share that's at least…

I've said multiple times now that I think the ACLU did the right thing in the Skokie case. I don't know why you keep thinking I want a "political-driven legal group" (nor why you imply the defense of civil rights isn't "political").
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