Earlier quoted context omitted.
You got it. It takes intelligence to entertain both sides of an argument, grasp and appreciate the nuance of the situation and then come to a sensible conclusion, which is often "I don't know, I'll need to learn more to decide." And it takes intellectual honesty to admit when our preconceptions need to be tossed and upgraded to a more expansive, more accurate worldview, which is the essense of intelligence. That's wh…
This is just an argument to moderation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation Realistically, you can entertain both sides of an argument and come to the conclusion that one side is wrong.
How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
81–90 of 111 posts
Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
#82There are a couple of other groups I would like to be interviewed as well. - Economists who have bought into the crowding out theory. Are they consistent and still oppose government spending? [1] - People/corporations who have lobbied for and taken advantage of all kinds of loopholes in taxation as to avoid paying taxes and who think taxation is theft, and are now expecting government to pay them out from this mess.…
Your three examples run in a similar vein: individual rights vs the role of government. I think many of those you would see as holding contradictory views would say that government intervention in these areas actually fall under the domain of something they believe is one of the few justifiable functions of government: defense. Only, it's not a war this time.
Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
#83This planet will always have people who are always not happy with something. And don't get me wrong it positive. Even stupid alarming vaccine campaigns caused better results evaluation. And since this is a liberal society where you can't force people to stay at home even if it will cause death, oh well... this is the only way, someone should die without vaccine first.
> Even stupid alarming vaccine campaigns caused better results evaluation. What does this mean? It doesn't make sense in English, so could you please elaborate? > someone should die without vaccine This is a fundamental misunderstanding of why anti-vaxxers are a problem. They don't just kill themselves. They break herd immunity and put other people at risk. They have already caused outbreaks that have killed adults a…
Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not control, it is the anti-vaxxers freeloading on the herd immunity maintained by the smart people and deliberately endangering the people with genuine medical conditions that prevent vaccination & so literally depend on the herd immunity to live We are not on the Lewis & Clark expedition, we live in a highly complex society, which requires serious maintenance.
Smart people are loathe to trust for-profit corps with their health. How safe do you find those opioids now? What were they saying in front of the congressional committee? What were their sales reps saying? What were their privately-funded goal-seeking researchers saying? Medical science and profit should not be mixed. I mean, look at this mess here in America.
It is called not throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Smart people make finer distinctions.
Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
No piece of paper is, or ever should be used as a suicide pact, I agree. But please clearly explain to me why you think the Constitution is in your words, a "suicide pact".
>But please clearly explain to me why you think the Constitution is in your words, a "suicide pact". That's not what I said, and clearly not a reasonable conclusion one could reach from having read my comment with an awareness of the context in which it occurred. Which is odd, because I literally quoted the necessary context from your comment to make the meaning obvious. I was referring to your mention of "a future c…
Our debate, if we have one, is not about the Constitution being a "suicide pact".
Your argument, if I understand you correctly, is that the entire science of epidemiology -- is sufficient proof to warrant government intervention in the case of a pandemic.
The root understanding of government, at least the U.S. Government, is that it's there to protect "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Or phrased another way, to protect property (which includes the lives) of the people that comprise the nation.
So from these two arguments, I agree.
The science of epidemiology -- is enough proof to warrant government intervention.
So we agree thus far.
But there's a small problem... Rather teensy-weensy, in fact...
It comes from your use of the word "mandatory".
If you had said everything you had said without this word, or perhaps used the word "volunatary" in its place -- then we would be agreed 100%.
(Note to self: It's amazing how one word, just one word, on a forum post can create disagreements)
Because you used the word "mandatory", I think it's time for a quick recap of the root purpose and function of the U.S. Government.
You see, our Government has what amounts to a huge problem on its hands.
That is, it is supposed to preserve and protect the rights and freedom, the liberty, of its citizens, all of its citizens. At the same time.
Well, how exactly do you do this, do you accomplish this marvelous feat, in a case where Citizen A has some right, which we'll call "Right X", and when Citizen A exercises Right X, it interferes with Citizen B exercising a different right, "Right Y"
So it's Citizen A's Right X Vs. Citizen B's Right Y.
That's problematic, hugely problematic!
If the Government enforces Citizen A's right, Right X, then it equal-and-oppositely destroys Citizen B's right, Right Y.
If the Government enforces Citizen B's right, Right Y, then it equal-and-oppositely destroys Citizen A's right, Right X.
It's quite the dilemma, let me tell you!
So how could Government ever enforce something, how could government ever enforce anything, if it destroyed the rights (the rights that it was created to protect!) of an individual?
Warning: Deep answer coming from years and years of studying U.S. Law:
It can't.
Now, there's a very nuanced understanding there, let me see if I can explain it here with limited space:
It can't -- but it can "order", "require", "mandate", "enact" (choose whatever language you want), that its people, en masse, either do or do not do something.
It can even tell you that "this is Law".
(Fun fact: We have a Supreme Court to tell us when the things that other people have told us are "Law" -- are actually not "Law", and never were(!)... but we could also use the right logic, and discover this for ourselves...)
The problem is that the word "mandate" conveys the idea to the general (not educated in Law) population that something is required for them to do.
But see, you can't require people to do anything -- if and when it conflicts with any of their other rights.
We have Courts to resolve these rights issues -- that is the great purpose of Courts -- to resolve issues where Citizen A's Right X interferes with Citizen B's Right, or when the Government, by action or inaction, interfere with any of its Citizen's Rights, either en masse, or even individually.
Any government, and especially the U.S. Government -- is like that old story of many blind men in a room with an elephant -- they're supposed to touch it, and tell the others what it is. But because they are perceptually blinded, they only touch part of it, and what they communicate to each other is a localized perception, and ultimately, not the big picture of what it is...
If you feel that any, and I mean any force of Government is sufficient to get me to unwillingly relinquish my rights, then all I can say is that you don't understand Government.
The U.S. Government is there to protect me, and my rights, and you and your rights -- from other people that would step on them -- up to and including people in the U.S. Government, up to and including factions of the U.S. Government, and even up to and including the entire U.S. Government itself.
The U.S. Government can request, but it can never demand (even though it can use fancy language to make it appear that it is demanding!), especially if one or more of those demands are in contradiction to one or more of the principles of its founding.
So... that approaches a more nuanced understanding...
Or, you could have simply removed the word "mandatory" (because we're talking to a group of people who are mostly uneducated in Law) and/or replaced it with "voluntary"...
You would have had 100% of my agreement, if you did...
Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
#86One fair point "Floyd said, “are talking about washing your hands, but why aren’t they talking about things you can do to boost your immune system like vitamin D?" Given that in some countries in the northern hemisphere we are seeing a disproportionate number of ethnic minorities deaths from this, the aspect that vitamin D or lack of, does seem to be a factor and certainly one in which such advice would do more good…
I don't find this evidence convincing. Your first link just lists health benefits of vitamin D, and discusses how different ethnicities absorb it differently, which I don't want to dispute. The second link just states that minority populations are more at risk without making any link to vitamin D. This is, at best, a correlation (in fact, I'm not even sure the data does go that far) and implies no causal mechanism. S…
My wife's son is a doctor. He specifically told us to take D supplements, but not the kids.
That you are willing to even argue this is detrimental to society because you are obviously too stupid to know how stupid you are, which involves a lot of "I don't really know but I'll just spout off my misinformed opinions that could affect someone else's life."
Having low D levels indicates an immune system that is not functioning at its best.
You should excuse yourself from these conversions with an apology, but your ego probably can't do that, can it?
Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Smart people are loathe to trust for-profit corps with their health. How safe do you find those opioids now? What were they saying in front of the congressional committee? What were their sales reps saying? What were their privately-funded goal-seeking researchers saying? Medical science and profit should not be mixed. I mean, look at this mess here in America.
We can agree that profit motive can corrupt science and delivery of medicine without declaring that all of medicine is therefore bad. It is called not throwing out the baby with the bath water. Smart people make finer distinctions.
Please show me where I said, "All of medicine is therefore bad." No, you said that.
Now, will you apologize? I doubt it.
Will you do better at reading and understanding in the future? I sincerely hope so.
Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't find this evidence convincing. Your first link just lists health benefits of vitamin D, and discusses how different ethnicities absorb it differently, which I don't want to dispute. The second link just states that minority populations are more at risk without making any link to vitamin D. This is, at best, a correlation (in fact, I'm not even sure the data does go that far) and implies no causal mechanism. S…
The more melanin a person has the less D their skin makes per same time of exposure. That explains the minority differences. My wife's son is a doctor. He specifically told us to take D supplements, but not the kids. That you are willing to even argue this is detrimental to society because you are obviously too stupid to know how stupid you are, which involves a lot of "I don't really know but I'll just spout off my…
Second, of all, your inflammatory tone is unwarranted and adds nothing of value.
It would be better if you actually looked at the sources and referenced those in your critique.
Of course, it would also be good if you didn't misconstrue my argument, e.g. I neither claimed that there are no vitamin D absorption differences between ethnicities, nor that low levels of vitamin D aren't a problem; low levels of any vital nutritional element are a problems. I did state that I haven't yet seen evidence of a direct link from increased (i.e. more than average) vitamin D intake to a lower probability of being infected with or being seriously affected by covid19.
Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Trusting authority in some cases and not others is not cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance comes from encountering something that goes against your confirmation bias, and runs the risk of knee jerk reactions. Example of knee jerk reaction: the GP's example of the article (and possibly you) conflating a doctor who says "maybe we should slow down" with anti-vaxxers.
Yes, technically you can try to be more careful in distinguishing between different positions, such as people who are against vaccines and those who are for "delayed" vaccines. It doesn't really change the fact that both have no real evidence to provide for their claims and are promoting practices that, if not well-supported, are clearly dangerous. But more importantly, Bob Sears's opinion on e.g. measles doesn't eve…
I mean, the govt could do it, if they weren't in the pockets of the corps.
What I'm saying is that if you're waiting for the pharma corps to provide the necessary studies to show their products ineffective or even dangerous, I'd call you a fool. Or do you have a few billion dollars lying around to fund such studies?
Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19
#90Here is the pattern: 1) Establish a false dichotomy ("All vaccines are good, all vaccines are bad") 2) Come up with a pithy slur for the other side ("Antivaxx") 3) Emphasize the looniest people on the other side, ignore and hide the reasonable people on the other side. 4) Use this slur to browbeat moderates, the skeptical, the unsure and the open minded into silence. It's very effective.
The problem is that 1) is just a strawman no medical expert agrees to.