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What Happened to Lee

wired.com

191–200 of 299 posts

Re: What Happened to Lee

#191

Terrifying. As a software engineer, shit like this scares me. I've felt like I'm on a steady, slow, decline for the last ~4 years. Is it just burnout? Do I need a new hobby? I used to love programming... Spent 12 hours a day jamming on it. Now, I struggle to keep my mind on a line of code for more than 5 minutes. At what point is it just burnout, or at what point is it something more? That's what's terrifying to me.…

After reading this I had to do a quick self-assessment. For the last few years or so (I'm 33, also a software engineer) I've noticed a pretty big decline in my mental state. I can't focus. I immediately forget what I just looked at, read or did. I completely zone out when people talk to me. I am just not present in any situation. What is strange is that I can actually notice it, not in real-time however. It's been wo…

Also how is your sleep. 6hrs/day in your 20s is different than 6hrs/day in your 30s.

Re: What Happened to Lee

#192

Sandra did a wonderful piece in capturing Lee, his family, his work, and his degeneration. Lee was a coworker and roommate of mine for years. Some additional info that might be of interest to this crowd: He was fantastic at video games (RTS and RPG) and chess. He had impeccable hand-eye coordination. He co-founded a gaming clan. None of that is relevant anymore. There is nothing to be done. His condition can't be sol…

One story that didn't make it the article:

In September, after we'd released our S-1 but before Cloudflare's IPO, I took two weeks off and went back to my home town of Park City, Utah. (It's actually where Lee and I had been roommates many years before.) That two week period before you go public is known as the quiet period, so I was generally avoiding social media or answering my phone or doing anything other than resting and getting ready for the pre-IPO road show.

We hadn't talked much publicly about Lee's disease, but Michelle and I had written a bit about it in the S-1 Founders Letter:

"Finally, there are two of us signing this letter today, but three people started Cloudflare. Lee Holloway is our third co-founder and the genius who architected our platform and recruited and led our early technical team. Tragically, Lee stepped down from Cloudflare in 2016, suffering the debilitating effects of Frontotemporal Dementia, a rare neurological disease. As we began the confidential process to go public, one of the early decisions was to pick the code name for our IPO. We chose 'Project Holloway' to honor Lee’s contribution. More importantly, on a daily basis, the technical decisions Lee made, and the engineering team he built, are fundamental to the business we have become."

One evening my phone rang and the called ID came up as "Lee Holloway." I checked the number and it was his. I didn't answer and the caller didn't leave a voicemail. My first reaction was that somehow his phone had been hacked or his number was being spoofed and someone was using it to somehow screw with me. Figured someone had read about his disease in the S-1 and was being a jerk.

I reported the call to Cloudflare's security team to investigate. I also texted Lee's wife to let her know to be on the lookout. She wrote back: "No, that's Lee. Sometimes I think when he's feeling nostalgic he reaches out to old friends. He never says anything, but I think it's his way to let you know he's thinking about you."

So I still shoot him text messages from time to time to let him know I'm thinking about him. And I hope, somewhere inside his mind, there's a part of him that still knows that.

Re: What Happened to Lee

#193
post #181

Sandra did a wonderful piece in capturing Lee, his family, his work, and his degeneration. Lee was a coworker and roommate of mine for years. Some additional info that might be of interest to this crowd: He was fantastic at video games (RTS and RPG) and chess. He had impeccable hand-eye coordination. He co-founded a gaming clan. None of that is relevant anymore. There is nothing to be done. His condition can't be sol…

Can I ask you, when Lee’s personality began to change drastically, did he maintain the same level of technical proficiency (in coding or gaming)? It is a wonderful piece on a very sad story, and after reading it that’s one of the things that I’m interested to know more about, to understand the general condition.

I don't know about gaming, but I do about coding. First, if I look back over the 18 years I knew him, I can see some things that make me think he had the disease the whole time. He was a brilliant coder when he first started working with me out of college, but I think he really hit his peak ability to focus and do amazing things around 2014 — right as we were rolling out Universal SSL. But, even to the end, he was great at coding. In fact, I was told that the doctors said one of the things that was unique about his presentation of the disease was that while most people lose the ability to complete complex tasks first, Lee almost seemed to do the opposite — still thriving on the complex. We brainstormed whether there were coding challenges we could keep sending him after his diagnosis to keep that part of his mind active. It never ended up happening in part because he lost a lot of his verbal communication skills around the same time, but I wonder when you hear him counting under his breath what puzzle he's still solving in his head.

Re: What Happened to Lee

#194
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been sedated a few times for minor procedures, propofol, I think, with no issues, and I’ve had a general once, for a laparoscopic cholecystectomy - about as trivial as abdominal surgery comes, only a few hours under. It had side effects. For the better part of a year afterwards, I kept finding myself unconsciously substituting completely incorrect words into written correspondence, I was irritable almost const…

I've experienced this too. I had a tumor removed from my head. It was pretty serious. I'm not sure if it's due to the anesthesia, physical stress of the operation, changes to brain blood flow or radiation that my brain was hit with. Either way my memory has not been great since. My wife is disappointed when I forget meaningful conversions from a week ago. I struggle at times to notice trivial errors, really struggle.…

I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're going through this. It must be very difficult. I hope you do recover. Best of luck!

Re: What Happened to Lee

#195
post #187
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found the opposite. It can take a long time to get your head into that space but it produces much more maintainable and robust systems in my experience.

I have a similar experience. I've worked with a product that consists of tens of thousands of stored procedures implementing all business logic. Because you are right next to the data you can get away with doing many thing you would have not otherwise. Also it acted like a barrier, the core team who understood the business well worked on the stored procedures, keeping things fast and stable. Another team was doing th…

It also saves a lot of extra work. Often with more conventional systems you have to pull the data out. Move it into a structure native to the language doing the processing.

In the database you don't need to do any of this. The data is there. The type information is there.

Re: What Happened to Lee

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do wonder if some of his genius came from his ability to shut down some of the other noise in his life. Yes. I can think of a few examples of this.

Can you expand?

Mostly due to a few small things.

Lee bought a few material things, but he was mostly able to live out of his backpack for years at a time, at least before he got married. He didn't have many material desires (no fancy car, clothes, or big gaming computer). He periodically lived on other people's couches (including mine) between starting university and getting married.

I remember he drove through at least a few red lights because he was in the zone deep in thought processing some coding concepts / business plans in his mind while driving. Once I noticed this, I didn't let him drive me; instead he started to code on his laptop in my passenger seat.

When we were waiting in line to rent a UHaul-type truck, he was pacing the retail waiting area thinking through some coding for a future Unspam feature. I remember it because the guy standing behind me saw him as a stranger threat and started to get anxious that Lee was pacing in a hoodie nearby. I mention it because he never concentrated much on the small daily tasks like waiting in line and mostly overloaded those tasks to optimize his long term goals (eg. startup success).

He didn't write big architecture docs (possibly the part of his work that didn't scale much), but his mental capacity to juggle lots of small facts and tasks was pretty incredible. It worked great with a small team with very low turnover. I miss those days when I just checked in with him 2-3 times a day rather than having to spend a lot of mental effort to figure out how to serialize lots of trivial stories/subtasks into Jira.

Re: What Happened to Lee

#197
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been sedated a few times for minor procedures, propofol, I think, with no issues, and I’ve had a general once, for a laparoscopic cholecystectomy - about as trivial as abdominal surgery comes, only a few hours under. It had side effects. For the better part of a year afterwards, I kept finding myself unconsciously substituting completely incorrect words into written correspondence, I was irritable almost const…

I've experienced this too. I had a tumor removed from my head. It was pretty serious. I'm not sure if it's due to the anesthesia, physical stress of the operation, changes to brain blood flow or radiation that my brain was hit with. Either way my memory has not been great since. My wife is disappointed when I forget meaningful conversions from a week ago. I struggle at times to notice trivial errors, really struggle.…

I'm sorry, that sounds awful. I think it definitely could be any combination of those things. The brain is a very delicate and sensitive machine.

I don't have specific recommendations, but I think that the potential for recovery should be much higher than what people with neurodegenerative diseases suffer from, like what was described in this article.

There're a lot of risk and uncertainty trade-offs, and everyone reacts to things differently due to their genetics and what they're suffering from, but nootropic substances could potentially help here. They could possibly help as a short-term aid that improves memory and attention to detail while the nootropic is in effect, and some can actually potentially create long-term improvements.

They're very under-studied, and they definitely require a lot of careful research, gradual self-testing, and acceptance of some risk (some nootropics have almost no risk, and some have a moderate level), but it could be worth looking into.

Re: What Happened to Lee

#198
post #181

Sandra did a wonderful piece in capturing Lee, his family, his work, and his degeneration. Lee was a coworker and roommate of mine for years. Some additional info that might be of interest to this crowd: He was fantastic at video games (RTS and RPG) and chess. He had impeccable hand-eye coordination. He co-founded a gaming clan. None of that is relevant anymore. There is nothing to be done. His condition can't be sol…

Can I ask you, when Lee’s personality began to change drastically, did he maintain the same level of technical proficiency (in coding or gaming)? It is a wonderful piece on a very sad story, and after reading it that’s one of the things that I’m interested to know more about, to understand the general condition.

I spent most of my time with him when he only starting a family and his business tasks were few. Most of the symptoms described in this article happened after his family and work responsibilities grew, which both reduced his time for MMORPG / RTS gaming. When his older son was old enough, they would play casual games together, but that's a completely different realm of proficiency required.

Re: What Happened to Lee

#200
post #24

The question that occurs to me is: if you knew that was in your future, would you spend your last 10 good years toiling at a startup?

In Lee's case, at least when he started his career; the answer to that is definitely "yes". He didn't "toil", and he was working on something he believed in and was passionate about.

While Lee's personality changed a lot over time, he was always the guy who got more out of hanging out in a garage building something than someone touring France/Italy/etc.

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