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Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

medrxiv.org

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Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#201

Post by dfsegoat »

capnrefsmmat wrote: post #49

It's important to interpret these results carefully: "no evidence of efficacy" does not imply evidence of no efficacy, and in fact the uncertainty in this study is quite large. The sample size is small enough that it would be very hard for this study to detect the effect of hydroxychloroquine unless that effect is very, very large. From the abstract: > In the HCQ group, 2.8% of the patients died within 7 days vs 4.6%…

Also important to note:

This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#202

Post by DangerousPie »

tjenkinsqs wrote: post #173
forgingahead wrote: post #148

This whole debate is insane to me -- some people that so-called "experts" don't like mentioned HCQ as a possible treatment for coronavirus, and we've ended up in some bizarro world where everyone is shouting and fingers are being pointed over something that really shouldn't be controversial or perceived as some sinister plot to destroy clever society. 1. HCQ has been used for many decades 2. The side effects are gene…

Excellent points. I would add: HCQ is most effective at the onset of symptoms. It stops the virus from replicating, it does not repair cell damage. Also, it must be used with zinc together, since HCQ opens the cells to absorb zinc and zinc must be present.

[citation needed]

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#203

Post by pdkl95 »

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 wrote: post #132
bcrosby95 wrote: post #111

And to put this interpretation into perspective, people that need this drug for diseases that it has proven to have a large effect on are losing access to it because it may or may not help with COVID-19.

HCQ is an off-patent drug that is produced in every major country in the world. In fact, many countries have stockpiles of it because of its efficacy at preventing malaria. If there’s a risk of a supply run, it would definitely not last very long. For many people there’s alternatives for treating arthritis and lupus. If it’s shown even to improve the patient’s outcome by even just 10% or more (as this study suggests)…

> If there’s a risk of a supply run, it would definitely not last very long. For many people there’s alternatives for treating arthritis.

As of the last time I talked to her a couple days ago, my mother still hasn't been able to fill her hydroxychloroquine prescription that she has used to treat lupus for over 30 years. The alternative medications are steroids such as prednisone, which have previously caused dangerous side effects. Due to the useless panic buying, she's is now at severe risk of a bad autoimmune reaction if anything activates her immune system (even from a mild cold; covid-19 would be fatal).

> every country should be ramping up production of it right now instead of letting it be politicized

Yes, they should, but before that happens while supplies are limited, there are people that need the drug for well-established reasons.

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#204

Post by intuitionist »

firasd wrote: post #41

When the Covid crisis is over, one of the strangest sub- plots will have been the fracas around Hydroxychloroquine. Starting from medical practitioners worldwide adopting its usage in a ‘cargo cult’ way, mimicking what other doctors were doing, to Raoult’s low- quality study. Then people in Silicon Valley (notably Elon Musk) picking up the idea. Followed by the explosion in the political sphere, from Trump pushing it…

My understanding is that fish tank chloroquine phosphate is the exact same molecule as the pharmaceutical. You shouldn’t take it because it doesn’t have pharmaceutical quality standards and is very tricky to dose.

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#205

Post by downerending »

Goronmon wrote: post #175
downerending wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump pushed it as a miracle cure, at least at one point, and he evokes bitter opposition in many. (I think this is quite irrational, but that's your answer.)

People are in opposition to the president promoting drugs with unproven effectiveness as a miracle cure for an ongoing pandemic. I didn't think testing drugs before giving them to people was considered "irrational" as you state, but I guess that is where we are now.

It's "irrational" to oppose an idea just because it comes from someone you despise. It's not like this is coming from the National Enquirer--he has access to some of the brightest minds in the world.

The efficacy picture on these drugs is quite confusing, and it's not out of the question that they will turn out to be crucially useful. Giving up on them without further investigation doesn't seem wise at this point.

Beyond that, sometimes being a leader means giving people hope, even if that might involve shading things. Trump may not be an Adama, but I do think he's pretty good at making people feel better, or at least distracting them from their troubles. And right now, that probably is saving lives.

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#206

Post by intuitionist »

firasd wrote: post #90
massaman_yams wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politically, yes, there was/is a cargo cult. Both for those convinced it's a cure, and the anti-cargo-cult opposing party convinced it's somewhere between useless and actively harmful. From a medical practice standpoint, you have a widely-available drug with well-known side effects that can be administered in a medical setting with low risk, and potential life-saving upside. When the research is early but potentially…

The problem with 'low risk / high upside' is that it can apply to anything. We can try lemonade since it has low risk and high upside. But at some point we have to start wondering if we should all be obsessed with lemonade right? Even when doctors were using HCQ before the politicians and random outsiders picked up on it, there were other drugs in the mix that they were also considering (Lopinavir, Remdesivir, etc).…

Remdesivir is very difficult and expensive to synthesize, and it’s patented by Gilead. HCQ is dirt cheap and generic. Of course we should be testing anything that shows enough promise and has a well understood safety profile, but it’s obvious why the cheap generic drug working would be better.

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#207

Post by supercanuck »

daxorid wrote: post #39
CydeWeys wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Savage.

Not quite as savage as you think. His PhD is in Neurotoxicology. Of all the things Martenson has been wrong about over the years, this particular event is a bit more in his wheelhouse than the economics or energy topics he typically covers.

Sure.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/covid-19-brazil-trial-fo...

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#208

Post by renewiltord »

DangerousPie wrote: post #191
renewiltord wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re struggling because you have chosen this regulatory regime. Generics factories are pumping it out right now.

How is this about regulation? Factories and supply chains can't just suddenly ramp up their production by an order of magnitude or more. You need to build new machines, hire new workers, source new supplies, and figure out how to distribute it all. That can't just happen from one day or another, no matter how little regulation there is on the product.

You’re overestimating the difficulty of this. But don’t trust me. Go talk to a generics drug manufacturer in India yourself.

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#210

Post by DangerousPie »

renewiltord wrote: post #208
DangerousPie wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this about regulation? Factories and supply chains can't just suddenly ramp up their production by an order of magnitude or more. You need to build new machines, hire new workers, source new supplies, and figure out how to distribute it all. That can't just happen from one day or another, no matter how little regulation there is on the product.

You’re overestimating the difficulty of this. But don’t trust me. Go talk to a generics drug manufacturer in India yourself.

So that's why it's so hard to find things like flour or toilet paper right now? Nothing to do with supply chains and manufacturing, just too much regulation? Can't wait until we repeal the 4-ply rule!
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