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Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

medrxiv.org

41–50 of 379 posts

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#41
When the Covid crisis is over, one of the strangest sub- plots will have been the fracas around Hydroxychloroquine. Starting from medical practitioners worldwide adopting its usage in a ‘cargo cult’ way, mimicking what other doctors were doing, to Raoult’s low- quality study. Then people in Silicon Valley (notably Elon Musk) picking up the idea. Followed by the explosion in the political sphere, from Trump pushing it at the White House podium, to Indian PM Modi reversing an HCQ export ban for Trump, to French PM Macron talking it up.

All the while HCQ remained unproven for Covid use, while people trying it got hurt by cardiac side- effects (and one couple in a prominent incident mistakenly took different chemicals with a similar name), and patients with other conditions ran out of HCQ due to shortages.

Maybe HCQ will be part of the standard of care for Covid- 19 in the future, but it’s seeming less and less likely. Meanwhile it’s definitely not a miracle cure, so the frenzied advocacy and adoption of this medicine will turn out to have been a bizarre story.

(I wrote this up here https://twitter.com/firasd/status/1250125344469708801)

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#42

Given that I need hydroxychloroquine to treat my rheumatoid arthritis, I'd like this hypothesis to be either proven or disproven as rapidly and as unambiguously as possible.

My wife is feeling the same anxiety - she'd usually get 90 day fills at the pharmacy and they've scaled it back to 30 day fills... which is great because folks with autoimmune diseases really should be going to the pharmacy more often.

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#43

Lots of conflicting research happening[1], until we get multiple controlled trials we won't really know. Here's one that shows improvements. [1] French ~50 patient study that tried Control, Hydroxychloroquine, and Hydroxychloroquine + Azithromycin combo: https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/hydroxychloroquine-an...

> Lots of conflicting research happening

That's my main take-away at this point. I have seen enough reports saying it worked, and enough saying it didn't that I believe the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

My understanding is the best guess for how it works is by keeping the viral infection from becoming serious enough to require hospitalization. Similar to how proper treatment of wounds early on keeps them from getting to the gangrene stage where you need amputation.

Unfortunately, politics. So the Left wants it to be completely no use at all, and the Right wants it to be a miracle drug. Most of the population really probably just wants effective treatments if they end up getting sick.

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#44
post #4

Totally out of my depth here. I've been following Dr. Chris Martenson's daily covid-19 updates since late January. He is adamant this treatment is only effective in combination with zinc supplements.

So why doesn't this guy setup clinical trials instead of providing non-confirmed medical advice on the daily? Probably cause he is lazy and more interested in selling and promoting himself than he is actually solving problems. This guy knows the scientific method, I assume. he knows that something needs to be observable and replicated. Instead, he is asking us to trust his brilliance on something where the side effec…

[deleted]

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#45
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because HCQ’s efficacy was briefly endorsed by a controversial political figure I fear that there’s no evidence in either direction will convince the true believers. This is now a political issue, like global warming. Hopefully someone is ramping up production so availability improves for those that actually need it.

The science providing data is apolitical. It just takes its due time.

Yup - and said controversial political figure jumped on the guess before the science was in and heavily endorsed it - this is likely leading to widespread misuse of a drug which is know to cause extreme damage to organs including kidneys, livers and eyes when misdosed and taken in excess.

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#46
post #43

Lots of conflicting research happening[1], until we get multiple controlled trials we won't really know. Here's one that shows improvements. [1] French ~50 patient study that tried Control, Hydroxychloroquine, and Hydroxychloroquine + Azithromycin combo: https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/hydroxychloroquine-an...

> Lots of conflicting research happening That's my main take-away at this point. I have seen enough reports saying it worked, and enough saying it didn't that I believe the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. My understanding is the best guess for how it works is by keeping the viral infection from becoming serious enough to require hospitalization. Similar to how proper treatment of wounds early on keeps the…

I'm out of the loop here: why would any political faction not want an alleged cure to work? What's the goal here?

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#47

Lots of conflicting research happening[1], until we get multiple controlled trials we won't really know. Here's one that shows improvements. [1] French ~50 patient study that tried Control, Hydroxychloroquine, and Hydroxychloroquine + Azithromycin combo: https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/hydroxychloroquine-an...

That study has been widely condemned as lacking any sort of rigour – the journal that published it has since issued a statement of concern around the methods.

For example, their "control" group were just arbitrarily-chosen patients treated at different hospitals, not people treated in the same hospital as where the study was conducted.

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#49
It's important to interpret these results carefully: "no evidence of efficacy" does not imply evidence of no efficacy, and in fact the uncertainty in this study is quite large. The sample size is small enough that it would be very hard for this study to detect the effect of hydroxychloroquine unless that effect is very, very large.

From the abstract:

> In the HCQ group, 2.8% of the patients died within 7 days vs 4.6% in the no-HCQ group (3 vs 4 events, RR 0.61, 95% CI 0.13-2.89), and 27.4% and 24.1%, respectively, developed acute respiratory distress syndrome within 7 days (24 vs 23 events, RR 1.14, 95% CI 0.65-2.00).

The relative risks and confidence intervals are the important numbers here. For example, the relative risk for death is 0.61, meaning the observed risk of death was lower for patients treated with hydroxychloroquine -- but the confidence interval is 0.13 to 2.89, meaning the data is consistent with anything from the risk being much smaller to the risk being much larger. Since there were only 3 deaths in the treatment group and 4 deaths in the control group, it's very hard to draw precise conclusions about death rates.

I think we can interpret this result to mean that hydroxychloroquine doesn't have a miraculously large effect, but the evidence is weak. Other commenters are correct that large randomized trials will be more definitive.

(disclaimer: I am a statistician, not a doctor)

Re: Study: No evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalized patients

#50

Personally I'm witholding judgment until the results of the PATCH trial ( https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04329923 ) arrive, as it'll finally give us some decent statistical power, and be a full, double-blind RCT. It also has multiple study arms (health-care worker prophylaxis, home-quarantined early stage, hospitalized later-stage), so if it turns out that HCQ is effective but that by the time patients are ho…

> Estimated Primary Completion Date: April 1, 2021

Can we expect preliminary data from this trial before the primary completion date?

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