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Python programming is drowning in red tape

stefanoborini.com

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Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#141

Post by l0b0 »

15 years ago I might've agreed with this. The current project I'm working on checks many of OP's boxes: Black, isort, flake8, mypy (although even with a strict configuration we've not had to use generic types yet), pre-commit linting hook, CI, Poetry (because Pipenv was too painful and screw pip's hatred for checksums) and pytest. And by the sound of it, OP would be more than happy to get rid of mandatory code reviews and near-100% code coverage. But the devs are happy, more importantly the client is really happy, and after two years we're still moving fast, merging several features most days with minimal regressions.

Screw the old way. It sucked.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#142

Post by omginternets »

echelon wrote: post #46

> a CODE_OF_CONDUCT, because we assume preemptively that you are a racist homophobic asshole, and we have to cover our bases. This one is a new personal pet peeve. I'm not a racist homophobe--I'm a good person. And though it doesn't give me any authority to speak on the matter, I'm bi and I've dated all sorts of people. I don't like to be presumed to be an asshole (or presume that others may be), and I'm offended tha…

>I'm going to be downvoted for even admitting this? That's why I debated even posting. I don't like operating like this.

I think this is a case where a minority of people care very deeply, both about the core issue and about proselytizing it. The rest of us are a silent majority who, like you, are rubbed the wrong way by the whole situation but don't care enough to make a fuss.

To add to your point, here's what boggles my mind with this new CoC frenzy: you can enforce good behavior, even without a CoC.

I don't have any popular open source projects under my stewardship, but if that ever happens, I don't think I'm going to add add a CoC. This is because, in my estimation:

1. They're political tools. The people who visibly push for their widespread use tend to have a revanchist attitude with respect to diversity, inclusion and social equality. They see CoCs as a symbolic action in a turf war, not unlike spray-painting a gang symbol in an alley.

2. As you yourself have noted, it puts people on the defensive. It makes them think before posting...but for all the wrong things. It's stifling.

3. I can still ban disruptive or toxic assholes. I don't need a fake constitution to grant me those powers. See point #1.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#143

Post by salex89 »

In my experience, anything longer than 1500 lines chokes PyCharm. And I can't blame it, it's still the best Python editor. Everything else feels like writing in Notepad. It's the only tool that can actually helps you navigate/organise/autocomplate/whatever in large Python project, which is a must for this goddamn language.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#144

Post by omginternets »

justin66 wrote: post #131
echelon wrote: post #46

> a CODE_OF_CONDUCT, because we assume preemptively that you are a racist homophobic asshole, and we have to cover our bases. This one is a new personal pet peeve. I'm not a racist homophobe--I'm a good person. And though it doesn't give me any authority to speak on the matter, I'm bi and I've dated all sorts of people. I don't like to be presumed to be an asshole (or presume that others may be), and I'm offended tha…

> And when there are assholes, can't we handle everything on a case-by-case basis, as it arises? Don't interpret this comment as support or lack of support for codes of conduct (I honestly don't have an opinion about the topic). This is just an observation: there are multiple species of attention-seeking internet troll who want very, very much for you to treat their absurd behavior "on a case by case basis." > I'm go…

>This is just an observation: there are multiple species of attention-seeking internet troll who want very, very much for you to treat their absurd behavior "on a case by case basis."

In my experience the exact opposite is true. Most trolls want to argue the finer language of a CoC, and waste everyone's time in a pseudo-legal battle.

"Case-by-case" doesn't mean you have to spend a lot of time. It just means you're asking yourself "is this person being disruptive" as opposed to being compelled to argue technicalities in order to justify your actions as a moderator.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#145

Post by jimmaswell »

tcbasche wrote: post #137
jimmaswell wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

print as a function and headache-inducing string handling hardly resemble the python I came to like either. those two things bring python3 down from great to meh for me. biggest language change blunders I've ever seen. I feel a wave of disappointment every time I have to type a paren on a print call in python3.

I can't even tell if this is sarcastic or not

it's not. the language has abandoned its principles of simplicity and convenience.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#146

Post by tcbasche »

jimmaswell wrote: post #145
tcbasche wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't even tell if this is sarcastic or not

it's not. the language has abandoned its principles of simplicity and convenience.

right. by adding parentheses to the print function ... ? Surely you have bigger things to worry about

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#147

Post by tcbasche »

koonsolo wrote: post #87
AlexandrB wrote: post #4

As a long time Python fan, I find the current state of the language frustrating. Tools like black and poetry are nice, but are not part of the standard library. Yet they seem to be required by every popular project out there. (Also, black’s formatting is quite ugly, as noted in this blog post) Meanwhile, the language itself is increasingly baroque and complicated. Type-annotated, asyncio-enabled Python hardly resembl…

> hardly resembles the easy-to-understand language I fell in love with back in 2006. I used to love Python back in those days. Even did a big project with multiple developers in it. Then I didn't use it for a while and came back for some easy scripting. I was absolutely horrified how complex things are right now. Ditched it and doing my scripting with node.js.

scripting with node.js? Isn't that objectively picking the wrong tool for the job?

Perhaps I'm just ignorant as to why you would use what's typically a web server for the purposes of scripting

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#148

Post by justin66 »

omginternets wrote: post #144
justin66 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And when there are assholes, can't we handle everything on a case-by-case basis, as it arises? Don't interpret this comment as support or lack of support for codes of conduct (I honestly don't have an opinion about the topic). This is just an observation: there are multiple species of attention-seeking internet troll who want very, very much for you to treat their absurd behavior "on a case by case basis." > I'm go…

>This is just an observation: there are multiple species of attention-seeking internet troll who want very, very much for you to treat their absurd behavior "on a case by case basis." In my experience the exact opposite is true. Most trolls want to argue the finer language of a CoC, and waste everyone's time in a pseudo-legal battle. "Case-by-case" doesn't mean you have to spend a lot of time. It just means you're as…

I'm talking beyond my expertise here - I've never been involved in a CoC argument, but I have witnessed a lot of trolling - but it seems to me like the same guy who would be happy to argue endlessly about the trouble he's caused and the punishment or censorship that's being meted out on a case by case basis would also be happy to argue endlessly about a code of conduct and its application. Just please pay attention to him!

I sort of suspect the same applies to the third parties who like to whinge about how moderation is being done.

> "Case-by-case" doesn't mean you have to spend a lot of time. It just means you're asking yourself "is this person being disruptive" as opposed to being compelled to argue technicalities in order to justify your actions as a moderator.

Even I have seen the "you handled this one way last month, why are you treating this guy differently today?" arguments. I imagine if you're willing to discuss your decisions at all, you're going to be forced to argue technicalities, if you're infested by the kind of people who like to argue technicalities.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#149

Post by RhysU »

zo1 wrote: post #92
oefrha wrote: post #25

I don’t love black’s formatting, but this article is just wrong. 1. Black’s formatting of function arguments does not break PEP8, because the closing parenthesis is one level of indentation back, breaking the continuation. (I don’t even need to check linked threads. Dude is wrong and must have been told so. He doesn’t want to listen, fine. Fork as he wishes, but it’s not like I’m gonna use his fork over Łukasz Langa’…

To be fair, it's a giant 4100 line file. That's ridiculous and should be broken up in some way. Let's not try to defend ridiculous behavior just because we don't like the tone of this article, as he's spot on in this regard regarding the organization of this library. I've encountered similar "libraries" that are next to impossible to alter in behavior without forking precisely because they're giant single-file messes…

That's silly long. But it is tested and works. And it didn't cost me any money.
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