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Python programming is drowning in red tape

stefanoborini.com

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Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#131

Post by justin66 »

echelon wrote: post #46

> a CODE_OF_CONDUCT, because we assume preemptively that you are a racist homophobic asshole, and we have to cover our bases. This one is a new personal pet peeve. I'm not a racist homophobe--I'm a good person. And though it doesn't give me any authority to speak on the matter, I'm bi and I've dated all sorts of people. I don't like to be presumed to be an asshole (or presume that others may be), and I'm offended tha…

> And when there are assholes, can't we handle everything on a case-by-case basis, as it arises?

Don't interpret this comment as support or lack of support for codes of conduct (I honestly don't have an opinion about the topic). This is just an observation: there are multiple species of attention-seeking internet troll who want very, very much for you to treat their absurd behavior "on a case by case basis."

> I'm going to be downvoted for even admitting this? That's why I debated even posting. I don't like operating like this.

The mob is handling our comments on a case by case basis!

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#132

Post by jimmaswell »

AlexandrB wrote: post #4

As a long time Python fan, I find the current state of the language frustrating. Tools like black and poetry are nice, but are not part of the standard library. Yet they seem to be required by every popular project out there. (Also, black’s formatting is quite ugly, as noted in this blog post) Meanwhile, the language itself is increasingly baroque and complicated. Type-annotated, asyncio-enabled Python hardly resembl…

print as a function and headache-inducing string handling hardly resemble the python I came to like either. those two things bring python3 down from great to meh for me. biggest language change blunders I've ever seen. I feel a wave of disappointment every time I have to type a paren on a print call in python3.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#133

Post by dwb »

echelon wrote: post #46

> a CODE_OF_CONDUCT, because we assume preemptively that you are a racist homophobic asshole, and we have to cover our bases. This one is a new personal pet peeve. I'm not a racist homophobe--I'm a good person. And though it doesn't give me any authority to speak on the matter, I'm bi and I've dated all sorts of people. I don't like to be presumed to be an asshole (or presume that others may be), and I'm offended tha…

Codes of conduct have come about because apparently we need them. The before-time, when adults were meant to just get on with each other like adults, resulted in some marginalised people feeling very pushed out. So, as usual, a handful of unkind people ruined it for everyone. I don't love having to spell out that racism or transphobia or whatever isn't acceptable, but experience has shown that we do have to say it. So it's a choice between feeling a bit bad about some humans being mean, or projects tending towards a monoculture of big-ego masculine types and hardly anyone else feeling like it's worth the hassle.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#134

Post by tcbasche »

Someone needs to chill. I've been working with Python projects for nearly 5 years and you only ever use a subset of the tools. And let's face it, for the most part Python has needed some sort of formality in the project setup, as it's a free-for-all for how you can set up a project.

The other point is - the need section for a project? Just seems unnecessarily snarky. Case in point:

> bumpversion, because I am too lazy to put a single file with a version number, and sphinx is too hard to setup to fetch this version number.

Maybe the team kept forgetting to bump the version number and this removed some mental overhead?

No-one is stopping you getting out there and just coding. There's always an ecosystem surrounding a language, maybe just embrace just how huge and ubiquitous using Python has become, and get out there and write some code.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#135

Post by tcbasche »

micimize wrote: post #41

Hard forking a project to make use of the hard work the maintainers put in to it, then writing a post doing nothing but insulting those maintainer's decisions / preferences, is not a good look. Neither is throwing temper tantrums in issue threads: https://github.com/psf/black/issues/1178#issuecomment-565383... Also if this developer wasn't so obsessed with bikeshedding, they could just edit the one bit of formatting…

It seems like they had an issue, they came up against a fairly standard response from an open source community, and then had several public hissy fits about it.

> Personally, I much prefer black's indentation scheme. I also like spending as little time as possible agonizing over minutia like this.

The strain of bothering over this stuff just isn't worth my time either - I have actual work to do, and the tools tend to just do what I need them to. If they don't, I move on.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#136

Post by boomlinde »

raverbashing wrote: post #122
boomlinde wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I keep hearing these arguments but to me they sound like a romantic attachment to the past. If you think that "I like 80 because it allows me to have two files open side by side on my laptop with a readable font size." sounds like a romantic attachment to the past you should probably just read it over and over again until it doesn't.

Did you read the 2nd paragraph? Just to be sure, I just tested on my notebook screen (13"): 2x80 doesn't fit with a comfortable font size for me, so maybe we should start using 70 chars?

I did read the second paragraph, which makes the first paragraph all the more confusing. First you utterly dismiss the argument on an unreasonable basis, and then in the second paragraph you acknowledge that it's useful to be able to do that.

> Just to be sure, I just tested on my notebook screen (13"): 2x80 doesn't fit with a comfortable font size for me, so maybe we should start using 70 chars?

Sure, YMMV. Even when that turns out to be too small for you, less text per line in the editor leaves more horizontal space for something else, for example a file browser sidebar or a terminal. I've done 2x80 on netbooks for what its worth, but the font size that required probably wouldn't be comfortable to me today.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#137

Post by tcbasche »

jimmaswell wrote: post #132
AlexandrB wrote: post #4

As a long time Python fan, I find the current state of the language frustrating. Tools like black and poetry are nice, but are not part of the standard library. Yet they seem to be required by every popular project out there. (Also, black’s formatting is quite ugly, as noted in this blog post) Meanwhile, the language itself is increasingly baroque and complicated. Type-annotated, asyncio-enabled Python hardly resembl…

print as a function and headache-inducing string handling hardly resemble the python I came to like either. those two things bring python3 down from great to meh for me. biggest language change blunders I've ever seen. I feel a wave of disappointment every time I have to type a paren on a print call in python3.

I can't even tell if this is sarcastic or not

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#138

Post by afiori »

fastball wrote: post #126
afiori wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Want a better standard? Make it. That is what this post is advocating for, his own fork of black.

Yes, but in this case it was all bark with no bite. The author has made 0 commits to his fork since forking (in Feb).

From other comments it looks like the author can be quite vitriolic, so it is possible that a lot of the criticism he receives here is fair in tone. But to me this looks a bit premature, the article sounded like a declaration of intent (especially regarding refactoring the code per se).

In particular I understand that there are wrong ways to complain (and possibly the author is guilty of them), but this specific blog felt over the top and emotional (something I sympathize after unrelated experiences in failing to understand how to organize an Poly/ML project) but not unfair.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#139

Post by _ZeD_ »

jimmaswell wrote: post #132
AlexandrB wrote: post #4

As a long time Python fan, I find the current state of the language frustrating. Tools like black and poetry are nice, but are not part of the standard library. Yet they seem to be required by every popular project out there. (Also, black’s formatting is quite ugly, as noted in this blog post) Meanwhile, the language itself is increasingly baroque and complicated. Type-annotated, asyncio-enabled Python hardly resembl…

print as a function and headache-inducing string handling hardly resemble the python I came to like either. those two things bring python3 down from great to meh for me. biggest language change blunders I've ever seen. I feel a wave of disappointment every time I have to type a paren on a print call in python3.

> print as a function

yessss... because a pair of parentesys are too much... I always hated that I couldn't pass "print" as a callback, or the weird >> syntax to write on stderr

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#140

Post by _ZeD_ »

koonsolo wrote: post #87
AlexandrB wrote: post #4

As a long time Python fan, I find the current state of the language frustrating. Tools like black and poetry are nice, but are not part of the standard library. Yet they seem to be required by every popular project out there. (Also, black’s formatting is quite ugly, as noted in this blog post) Meanwhile, the language itself is increasingly baroque and complicated. Type-annotated, asyncio-enabled Python hardly resembl…

> hardly resembles the easy-to-understand language I fell in love with back in 2006. I used to love Python back in those days. Even did a big project with multiple developers in it. Then I didn't use it for a while and came back for some easy scripting. I was absolutely horrified how complex things are right now. Ditched it and doing my scripting with node.js.

ahahahah now you are telling me that the node ecosystem and the tooling and pre/post compilation/translation phases are simpler than python? (and I'm not talking about the languages themself)
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