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Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

nytimes.com

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Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#101

Post by AlchemistCamp »

henearkr wrote: post #56
AlchemistCamp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan warned the WHO about human to human transmission on December 31st: https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3904054

I searched for the sources, and all that I found is that Taiwan asked WHO more investigation and verification of China's affirmation. Taiwan did not add any study results or scientific knowledge, so had nothing to really "warn" about. The China "results" were actually biased, so Taiwan was right to ask verification, but that's only retrospectively. At the time, there was no such certainty of their wrongdoing, especia…

> The China "results" were actually biased, so Taiwan was right to ask verification, but that's only retrospectively. At the time, there was no such certainty of their wrongdoing, especially given that they also collaborated by other means.

The reason you didn't find much is that the WHO refused to pass on Taiwan's warning.

Taiwanese doctors had direct emails from multiple colleagues in Wuhan, some of whom were punished by the local government for speaking. Doctors getting sick with the virus was direct evidence of human to human transmission.

Keep in mind that China also covered up and denied the existence of SARS for months. The WHO's decision to aid in suppressing the information of the epidemic has cost the entire globe countless lives and economic damage. What is it that so motivates you to defend them that you comment 20 times in this thread?

FWIW, I've followed the news this time and during SARS from the start, from local media in Taiwan and been deeply disappointed with the WHO and early international reporting both times.

Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#102

Post by AlchemistCamp »

henearkr wrote: post #83
MR4D wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it reckless? The WHO has arguably made the problem worse. Wouldn’t you want to defund any organization that makes a problem worse?

The WHO did not make the problem worse, because their statement just said that no human-human link was found yet, but that of course did not prevent scientists from launching new studies or continuing current studies to fill this gap. From a scientist perspective, to the contrary, stating the absence of knowledge would provoke the need for more studies.

> The WHO did not make the problem worse, because their statement just said that no human-human link was found yet

Not true. Taiwan had already warned them of human to human transmission in December. The WHO's failure to report it has cost the world many lives and a great deal of suffering: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2020/03/25/2...

Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#103

Post by henearkr »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #102
henearkr wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WHO did not make the problem worse, because their statement just said that no human-human link was found yet, but that of course did not prevent scientists from launching new studies or continuing current studies to fill this gap. From a scientist perspective, to the contrary, stating the absence of knowledge would provoke the need for more studies.

> The WHO did not make the problem worse, because their statement just said that no human-human link was found yet Not true. Taiwan had already warned them of human to human transmission in December. The WHO's failure to report it has cost the world many lives and a great deal of suffering: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2020/03/25/2...

Oh, I saw your other reply of my previous comment.

Well, you're right that physicians directly emailing other physicians is a good source for being cautious about China declarations, especially under an authoritarian government not allowing other forms of publications.

But still, from the point of view of WHO, it was not clear that there was such a pressure on experts. They only had China's studies in hands.

PS: well, maybe there was something more political going on. You seem well documented and I believe you. But they had to play with China on their side. Changing that means huge reforms, of not only WHO but UN. And reforms, not deletions...

Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#104

Post by henearkr »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #101
henearkr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I searched for the sources, and all that I found is that Taiwan asked WHO more investigation and verification of China's affirmation. Taiwan did not add any study results or scientific knowledge, so had nothing to really "warn" about. The China "results" were actually biased, so Taiwan was right to ask verification, but that's only retrospectively. At the time, there was no such certainty of their wrongdoing, especia…

> The China "results" were actually biased, so Taiwan was right to ask verification, but that's only retrospectively. At the time, there was no such certainty of their wrongdoing, especially given that they also collaborated by other means. The reason you didn't find much is that the WHO refused to pass on Taiwan's warning. Taiwanese doctors had direct emails from multiple colleagues in Wuhan, some of whom were punis…

Locked-down... heh... ^^

Also, I like supra-national bodies. They warrant that the non-zero sum game that is our planet and societies still live on...

PS: did Taiwan try to pass the warning directly? They could have published through other ways, Twitter being only one among numerous examples. This is a sincere question, not a trap.

Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#105

Post by AlchemistCamp »

henearkr wrote: post #103
AlchemistCamp wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The WHO did not make the problem worse, because their statement just said that no human-human link was found yet Not true. Taiwan had already warned them of human to human transmission in December. The WHO's failure to report it has cost the world many lives and a great deal of suffering: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2020/03/25/2...

Oh, I saw your other reply of my previous comment. Well, you're right that physicians directly emailing other physicians is a good source for being cautious about China declarations, especially under an authoritarian government not allowing other forms of publications. But still, from the point of view of WHO, it was not clear that there was such a pressure on experts. They only had China's studies in hands. PS: well…

This is a different link and, as it mentions, Taiwan's CDC has email receipts of its communications with the WHO.

In an outbreak situation, the correct response is NOT to say, "until you've published a study we'll tell the world there's no evidence of human-to-human transmission". If multiple doctors are getting sick from their patients, there IS evidence of human-to-human transmission.

If those doctors are in an authoritarian country that controls the flow of information, but they've emailed their colleagues abroad, that information itself must be shared by any responsible health organization.

Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#106

Post by henearkr »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #105
henearkr wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I saw your other reply of my previous comment. Well, you're right that physicians directly emailing other physicians is a good source for being cautious about China declarations, especially under an authoritarian government not allowing other forms of publications. But still, from the point of view of WHO, it was not clear that there was such a pressure on experts. They only had China's studies in hands. PS: well…

This is a different link and, as it mentions, Taiwan's CDC has email receipts of its communications with the WHO. In an outbreak situation, the correct response is NOT to say, "until you've published a study we'll tell the world there's no evidence of human-to-human transmission". If multiple doctors are getting sick from their patients, there IS evidence of human-to-human transmission. If those doctors are in an aut…

That makes sense.

Did Taiwan try to publish directly? On social media or other.

Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#107

Post by parineum »

sg47 wrote: post #35
conanbatt wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WHO arguably made the pandemic worse by discouraging the use of masks, propagating information that turned out to be false and dangerous saying there was no human-to-human interaction and generally sided with china in the informational flow. Easier to ignore the WHO if you don't give them any money.

Not as dangerous as calling it a democratic hoax or that it'll go down to zero or like a miracle, it'll go away one day.

Unfortunately we don't live in a world of one or the other. Both things happened and both were bad.

Either thing not happening (along with countless others) would have been best.

Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#108

Post by blackrock »

A lot of criticism here about the WHO. But what is the legal obligation of the United States to listen to anything the WHO says?

So what?

The virus is called COVID-19 for a reason. The virus was discovered in 2019. Each country can do their own thing.

Trump shut down international travel from China. He should have shut down travel from everywhere.

Once that virus was out of the bag, then it became impossible to stop. How do you stop something at the beginning, that you don’t even know exists? You can only try to slow it down. To isolate the infected. And to contain it.

But once an infected person leaves the border, then the virus will replicate in the next country. You only need one person to reach exponential growth.

The WHO even stated that they think the virus was building steam in all countries all over the world, and they were correct.

Here, it seems the politicians don’t understand biological science, and they don’t listen to their experts, and that they don’t understand what exponential growth is.

Further, the CDC refused to advise Americans to wear a mask, even a cloth mask to help reduce the transmission velocity of droplets. This was a bone-headed decision, that was entirely in the realms of control of the United States.

And then, the media keeps bringing up how China silenced an eye doctor, but what would this have done? Stop the virus? Doubtful, it was already building up steam in China. Make people more cautious, and wear a mask? Maybe, but local Chinese news TV were already advising that people be careful and vigilant, and wear a mask when outside. But not everyone was following that advice.

In contrast, what happened in New York, when rumors got out that the governor was shutting down the state? The result was that people fled to distant states! Some went to Rhode Island, and others went to Florida. Remember, all you need is one infected person to mess it up for everyone.

But really, I think what impacted the United States the most, was when Trump announced the travel ban from Europe. Everyone flocked home, and there were no health checks. The virus was already building up slowly, but this was the catalyst that accelerated it.

Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#109

Post by tibbydudeza »

It was clear from the actions of the Chinese govt the seriousness of the situation regardless of what they said.

Mass quarantines for millions in a few cities and rapid shipment of medical equipment, personnel and the building of treatment facilities for the province.

You need to be a pretty piss poor govt to only base your preperations on WHO press releases or worse yet Chinese media reports.

Trump is just looking for a scapegoat as usual.

Re: Trump Halts U.S. Funding of World Health Organization

#110

Post by simonh »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #102
henearkr wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WHO did not make the problem worse, because their statement just said that no human-human link was found yet, but that of course did not prevent scientists from launching new studies or continuing current studies to fill this gap. From a scientist perspective, to the contrary, stating the absence of knowledge would provoke the need for more studies.

> The WHO did not make the problem worse, because their statement just said that no human-human link was found yet Not true. Taiwan had already warned them of human to human transmission in December. The WHO's failure to report it has cost the world many lives and a great deal of suffering: https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2020/03/25/2...

This is true, absolutely, but had no material effect on the world's ability to respond to the situation. Suppose they had reported possible human transmission in December, instead of early January, would that have made any difference to Trump calling it a hoax on February 28?
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