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Python programming is drowning in red tape

stefanoborini.com

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Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#41

Post by micimize »

Hard forking a project to make use of the hard work the maintainers put in to it, then writing a post doing nothing but insulting those maintainer's decisions / preferences, is not a good look. Neither is throwing temper tantrums in issue threads: https://github.com/psf/black/issues/1178#issuecomment-565383...

Also if this developer wasn't so obsessed with bikeshedding, they could just edit the one bit of formatting code and republish. That way they could even rebase off of upstream if they wanted.

Personally, I much prefer black's indentation scheme. I also like spending as little time as possible agonizing over minutia like this.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#42

Post by NegativeLatency »

jaimex2 wrote: post #30
AlexandrB wrote: post #4

As a long time Python fan, I find the current state of the language frustrating. Tools like black and poetry are nice, but are not part of the standard library. Yet they seem to be required by every popular project out there. (Also, black’s formatting is quite ugly, as noted in this blog post) Meanwhile, the language itself is increasingly baroque and complicated. Type-annotated, asyncio-enabled Python hardly resembl…

Theres always Ruby

Ruby has solid package management too

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#43

Post by nine_k »

jordic wrote: post #32
blondin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Type-annotated, asyncio-enabled Python hardly resembles the easy-to-understand language I fell in love with back in 2006. true. i am all for types in general and for types annotations in python. but i have seen some heavily type-annotated python code lately and i don't think that's where we want to be. we are starting to look like a heavily templatized cpp code.

Don't mix things, guy! - asyncio it's one thing: From my point of view it's amazing... makes python be able to compete with nodejs or go.. (not so hard, if you work also on the browser) - mypy: that's another story, but it's also optional, use it if you want... (my opinion, like in typescript, if I want types I will do it with go or rust)

Good luck finding a pandas or scipy implementation for go or rust :-/

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#45

Post by tonyedgecombe »

jordic wrote: post #35
petersellers wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't have to use these features if you don't want or need them. Nobody uses 100% of any language's features, and the subset that is used can be very different from person to person. I don't see that as a problem. The problem is that other people might use those features and you also might have to read the code created by those people.

And what's the problem on having some type hints on some func signatures?) You can read python exactly the same way (with and without type hints)....

It's just one more thing you have to get to learn.

I have the same problem with classes in JavaScript. You can't ignore them and stick to prototypes nor ignore prototypes and stick to classes. What should have been a simplification has turned out to make things more complex.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#46

Post by echelon »

> a CODE_OF_CONDUCT, because we assume preemptively that you are a racist homophobic asshole, and we have to cover our bases.

This one is a new personal pet peeve. I'm not a racist homophobe--I'm a good person. And though it doesn't give me any authority to speak on the matter, I'm bi and I've dated all sorts of people.

I don't like to be presumed to be an asshole (or presume that others may be), and I'm offended that we have to treat adults like this as part of a new social contract. Can't we just be good to one another? And when there are assholes, can't we handle everything on a case-by-case basis, as it arises?

By putting this into every single project, it feels like we're building an ivory tower that ignores the social progress we've made in the last century. It's disrespectful and patronizing to mature adults to presume how they might behave. I don't like to think of people as great ape descendants, but this kind of thing reminds me we're just animals, fighting and name calling. I don't like that. I don't like how it makes me feel. Software is an achievement of human intellect, and I don't like to be reminded of our flaws. Not in the root of every software project I want to grok or contribute to.

I'm not so close-minded to rule out changing my mind on this matter, but I'm perplexed and, as I admitted before, slightly annoyed. I really want to hear others' opinions on this.

I'm not trying to trivialize anyone's experiences. I missed whatever original conversations there were on this matter and I want to express both how I feel and that I want to know more.

edit: I'm going to be downvoted for even admitting this? That's why I debated even posting. I don't like operating like this.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#47

Post by draw_down »

echelon wrote: post #46

> a CODE_OF_CONDUCT, because we assume preemptively that you are a racist homophobic asshole, and we have to cover our bases. This one is a new personal pet peeve. I'm not a racist homophobe--I'm a good person. And though it doesn't give me any authority to speak on the matter, I'm bi and I've dated all sorts of people. I don't like to be presumed to be an asshole (or presume that others may be), and I'm offended tha…

Ah jeez, have we really not beaten this topic to death already? Cmon

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#48

Post by oefrha »

echelon wrote: post #46

> a CODE_OF_CONDUCT, because we assume preemptively that you are a racist homophobic asshole, and we have to cover our bases. This one is a new personal pet peeve. I'm not a racist homophobe--I'm a good person. And though it doesn't give me any authority to speak on the matter, I'm bi and I've dated all sorts of people. I don't like to be presumed to be an asshole (or presume that others may be), and I'm offended tha…

Come on, I hate this as much as you do, but we don’t need yet another flamewar over this with canned responses.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#49

Post by swinglock »

DeepYogurt wrote: post #21
streblo wrote: post #12

> It was bikeshedding at its worst It's ironic that discussions about formatting are taking up so much mindshare in the python community. For years all you'd hear was that whitespace significance was a sign of the lowliness of python. Meanwhile, tons of people were ignoring the bikeshedding and getting things done. Now it's one of the most widely used languages in existence. The kinds of people that are focused on is…

I completely agree. Who cares if black is ugly? It's a standard which is easy to automate. Want a better standard? Make it. Until then black works.

> Beautiful is better than ugly.

Re: Python programming is drowning in red tape

#50

Post by echelon »

oefrha wrote: post #48
echelon wrote: post #46

> a CODE_OF_CONDUCT, because we assume preemptively that you are a racist homophobic asshole, and we have to cover our bases. This one is a new personal pet peeve. I'm not a racist homophobe--I'm a good person. And though it doesn't give me any authority to speak on the matter, I'm bi and I've dated all sorts of people. I don't like to be presumed to be an asshole (or presume that others may be), and I'm offended tha…

Come on, I hate this as much as you do, but we don’t need yet another flamewar over this with canned responses.

> Come on, I hate this as much as you do, but we don’t need yet another flamewar over this with canned responses.

I must live under a bush.

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