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Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

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Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#131

Post by NoInputSignal »

favorited wrote: post #23

The CPAP jailbreak community was eye-opening when I first learned of it. I never expected something like that, but with the draconian policies it's not surprising. For example, my CPAP has a CDMA radio inside, which transmits usage data back to the manufacturer & my doctor. Insurance won't pay for it unless the machine tells them I'm using it – so a medical device company has a record of when I sleep and wake, which…

Don't really know how viable this question is, but for curiousity's sake, is it possible to build a Faraday cage around the machine?

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#132

Post by [deleted] »

gmueckl wrote: post #127
mumblemumble wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being exceedingly uncharitable in characterizing the team that is working on this the way you do in the last paragraph. The article is littered with disclaimers about the current state of the project. They're very quick to point out that this is only a proof-of-concept, that expert review is ongoing and not complete, and that FDA approval needs to be sought before this can be used to treat COVID-19 patients. I…

No, I am not implying that this specific project is handled particularly unprofessionally. I want to warn people off who might think that they could just hack devices and put them to use on patients. This stuff requires serious expertise and if you don't have access to it, your effort is for entertainment only.

[deleted]

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#133

Post by fortran77 »

dpeck wrote: post #38
fortran77 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's scary is that CPAP machines are allowed on airplanes. If they really aerosolize virus particles, maybe they shouldn't be.

At least on Delta flights they’re not allowed to be used, I’m not sure if the same policy exists on other airlines. Edit: I was wrong, see below

I've sat next to people using them on Delta and United. Of course, I'm not without empathy for people who depend on them. But if a person has a viral infection that can be spread through droplets, this can be a very dangerous situation. If I'm ever in this situation again, I'll ask to be reseated. If they can't do that, I'm not sure I'd want to fly.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#134

Post by bearcobra »

sneak wrote: post #115
gmueckl wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a near identical array of sensors I don't know anything about the devices in question, but from what I know of engineering of medical devices, stating "near identical" makes me listen up. If these devices malfunction, they could hurt people. I expect a device like this to have an extensive array of sensors and a lot of extra hardware for constant self-monitoring. If the two lines of devices don't have exactly ident…

> If these devices malfunction, they could hurt people. I think that the circumstances under which these are being developed are a special emergency; the alternative to using such a less-safe, makeshift device here would be no ventilator at all, i.e. near-certain death. In this specific circumstance, I think this sort of criticism should be withheld. I don't think anyone's talking about reflashing CPAPs to be life su…

The YouTube channel Real Engineering has a great video breaking down why that might not actually be true. The possibility that makeshift devices could cause barotrauma and make things worse seems quite significant. You can check it out here if your interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vLPefHYWpY

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#135

Post by GordonS »

NoInputSignal wrote: post #131
favorited wrote: post #23

The CPAP jailbreak community was eye-opening when I first learned of it. I never expected something like that, but with the draconian policies it's not surprising. For example, my CPAP has a CDMA radio inside, which transmits usage data back to the manufacturer & my doctor. Insurance won't pay for it unless the machine tells them I'm using it – so a medical device company has a record of when I sleep and wake, which…

Don't really know how viable this question is, but for curiousity's sake, is it possible to build a Faraday cage around the machine?

How would that help with this part:

> Insurance won't pay for it unless the machine tells them I'm using it

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#136

Post by jdbernard »

prostheticvamp wrote: post #109
ars wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. And the worst part is sleep studies are medically unnecessary - an APAP machine (automatic machine) can auto-set the necessary pressure, and no sleep study is needed. Simply sleep with an APAP for a week, review the pressure graph and draw a line at the bottom of the values. Then set the minimum pressure to that number, or slightly less and done. Review every few months. If you ask a Dr. about this…

Hahahahah. Oh man. The vast majority of patients take months or longer to get acclimated to the machine. Most will say they feel /worse/, because the machine gets in the way of their sleep at first. I look forward to hearing more medical pearls from the web design community.

I'll chime in with the sibling comment. I felt immediately better after getting an APAP, within the first few days of using it. And my doctor didn't set specific pressure point but rather a range which we've never adjusted. And from memory that conversation was "I'm going to put it within these broad bounds and let it find the right place during the night. If it's not working for you come back in and we'll figure it out."

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#137

Post by favorited »

TylerE wrote: post #121
DenisM wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll occasionally strap mine on for a while when suffering from a head cold Wait, how does this help? Does this clear up stuffed nose and such?

Yes.

My big fear when starting with it was that it would be horrible to use when you have a cold, but so far I haven't had any issues with it.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#138

Post by MrStonedOne »

schuetze wrote: post #12
dontparticipate wrote: post #6

Messing with vents if you don't know what you're doing sounds like a sure fire way to kill yourself.

Agreed. BiPaP to ventilator already seemed like a somewhat questionable transformation, and now we're going CPAP ----questionable software hackery ----> BiPaP --- questionable hardware hacking ---> Ventilator This is hubris. Ventilators are not iPhones circa 2010. It's irresponsible for non-medical researchers to not only pursue, but also disseminate, these jailbreaks. A significant portion of medical device RnD is r…

>It's irresponsible for non-medical researchers to not only pursue, but also disseminate, these jailbreaks.

The reason for the underbelly trend of certain types of people to not trust doctors and scientists is a lack of trust in the system (medical system, science system, etc). The root of this for some people can be tied to this exact condescending attitude towards people.

Nobody responds to being told something is a bad idea, they only respond to understanding why it could be a bad idea and being allowed to decide for themselves, and your attempt at preventing them from deciding in a way you don't like how they treat their own body only furthers the rift that powers essential oil huns.

Me personally, If my local hospitals are out of ventilators and i'm showing signs of URD i'm gonna hack my autoset with this firmware to get the higher pressures needed for peep therapy and not bother going in. There isn't anything you can do to stop me. I might even do it even if they aren't out, as i would be able to start therapy sooner and potentially heed off snowball effects from a lower blood oxygen level on my immune system.

Attitudes like yours create, feed, and recruit anti-vaxxers and essential oil huns, and harm that does, is far greater than somebody hacking their own cpap machine for whatever ends.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#139

Post by Frost1x »

GordonS wrote: post #135
NoInputSignal wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't really know how viable this question is, but for curiousity's sake, is it possible to build a Faraday cage around the machine?

How would that help with this part: > Insurance won't pay for it unless the machine tells them I'm using it

You instead need to throw most the board of directors of the insurance provider and device manufacturer in question into a Faraday cage, lock it, and walk away.

On a more serious note, this is a new world of crazy for me I wasn't aware of. I wonder how difficult it would be to push forged data back to the monitoring agency with physical access to the machine with an independent setup. Then, simply put your actual device in a Faraday cage so you can still use your device as needed, with insurance covering it, without insurance invading your privacy and likely using that data for other unscrupulous purposes as well.

Re: Airbreak.dev: Jailbreak your CPAP machine to turn them into ventilators

#140

Post by Relys »

NoInputSignal wrote: post #131
favorited wrote: post #23

The CPAP jailbreak community was eye-opening when I first learned of it. I never expected something like that, but with the draconian policies it's not surprising. For example, my CPAP has a CDMA radio inside, which transmits usage data back to the manufacturer & my doctor. Insurance won't pay for it unless the machine tells them I'm using it – so a medical device company has a record of when I sleep and wake, which…

Don't really know how viable this question is, but for curiousity's sake, is it possible to build a Faraday cage around the machine?

It would just be easier to remove the chip lol
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