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Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#201

Post by supernova87a »

heyitsguay wrote: post #112
supernova87a wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, as pointed out elsewhere, people (or the general sentiment) on these discussions seemed to be all in favor of firing those who hold unpopular / conservative personal opinions, but now disagree with firing those with liberal opinions. If that's not viewpoint discrimination, I don't know what is.

Nobody's getting fired for suggesting the top marginal tax rate should be lower, or expressing the value of hard work and individual responsibility. The apparent phenomenon you allude to is the result of the normalization of sexist, racist, and xenophobic beliefs within the "conservative" sphere over the past few decades. Those beliefs are incompatible with being a member of a pluralistic workforce.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the attitude you should be watching out for. Not the one loudly and obnoxiously shouting offensive and obviously antisocial opinions. Recognizing that one is easy.

No, the opinion to watch out for is the one who fervently believes that it is the arbiter of what is socially acceptable to say, and is the interpreter of the rules by which it's enforced. Dare to raise a topic of discussion that is even tinged by the topic of sex, race, etc, no matter how important or worthy of discussion, and you'll be labeled offensive and worthy of being fired or banned. And this opinion never ceases believing its own righteousness, that's the worst part.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#202

Post by peterangular »

cirno wrote: post #156

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions,” a spokesperson said, “but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies.” What a strange statement. "We support their right to criticize their working conditions, only actually we don't at all"

"You're welcome to voice your concerns, but we're probably gonna fire you if you do."

If anyone is looking a corporate-speak translation here ya go. It's direct signaling to potential dissidents that their employment is not guaranteed if they decide to speak-up, no other way to read this.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#203

Post by kitanata »

_bxg1 wrote: post #193

A few months ago I was in the job market and got a call from a recruiter at Amazon. I flatly told them that I wasn't interested in working for Amazon on ethical grounds. At the time it was purely out of principle, but apparently it was a good decision for my self-interest as well. I wonder how long they can keep this stuff up before they start seriously damaging their desirability as a workplace, the way Facebook has…

I've turned down Amazon with a "hard no" twice citing exactly these reasons. As technology workers we have an ethical responsibility to not work for such a company. When enough of us boycott working at Amazon and organize in solidarity with our fellow workers they will be forced to listen. We run the world, folks. We need to start understanding the power we have in the workplace and use our voices to effect the right kind of change. We need to form a union.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#204

Post by shawnz »

ozim wrote: post #183
cirno wrote: post #156

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions,” a spokesperson said, “but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies.” What a strange statement. "We support their right to criticize their working conditions, only actually we don't at all"

I don't see anything wrong about that... Because that is if you don't agree with company policy or whatever company is doing, you should not work there. They should lose all employees and go bust. In practice I understand one would like to disagree and things should change to better. But life is not that simple, so if you can afford quitting please do so (if you are wealthy enough even in their face saying what they…

What if you actually believe in the company and what they do? Does that mean you must support each and every policy that the company instates?

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#205

Post by nomel »

graedus wrote: post #149
segmondy wrote: post #139

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you must talk against your employer in public, better go anonymous, if you have the courage to reveal your real identity, great! but be ready to bear the consequences. It's unfortunate, but most companies will do the same.

Imagine framing your employer as "the hand that feeds you", as if it is generously giving you a gift by paying you your salary in exchange for your labor. Here is a different view: don't expose your most vulnerable and precarious employees to a deadly virus by failing to take the necessary precautions to protect them while they keep your company running.

I'm looking at your first sentence in isolation.

> Imagine framing your employer as "the hand that feeds you", as if it is generously giving you a gift by paying you your salary in exchange for your labor.

What is your perspective on this? Are you self employed, providing some sort of raw material/product? How is your food, housing, and fun paid for? Have you ever been laid off or otherwise without work? If so, where did your income come from?

I don't have any side-gigs, so 100% of my income comes from my career. I can't imagine my situation is that rare. If I stopped working or were fired, I would have to immediately find a new job, otherwise my family would become dependent on the government programs (other peoples money/taxes from their hard work) and my own savings.

Every bit of money, and everything I've bought from it, has been from my employers, from pizza delivery to robotics.

Where should we be getting our money from?

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#206

Post by totalZero »

cirno wrote: post #156

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions,” a spokesperson said, “but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies.” What a strange statement. "We support their right to criticize their working conditions, only actually we don't at all"

It doesn't seem politically smart to me for Amazon to so blatantly open itself up to state and federal investigation, at a time when the president of the United States hates their leadership's guts and the Democratic Party is on a massive pro-workers kick.

Amazon has spent billions trying to replace the human component of its distribution. It would utterly fall apart if warehouse workers stop working. What's wrong with letting them share in the wealth, giving them masks and gloves, and reducing the throughput a little bit so that people don't have to work in close proximity to each other?

This doublespeak bullshit from Amazon is a pretty glaring symptom of a larger problem, perhaps (if I may editorialize) Bezos's resentment that he has to employ warehouse workers at all.

When all of this is said and done, I think Amazon is going to make ungodly sums of money and everyone will hate Jeff Bezos for how he treats the little guys.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#208

Post by cirno »

segmondy wrote: post #139

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you must talk against your employer in public, better go anonymous, if you have the courage to reveal your real identity, great! but be ready to bear the consequences. It's unfortunate, but most companies will do the same.

If you post with your anonymous account, you're tweeting to ten followers, maybe. Few people in life have a platform that is completely detached from their professional lives. You build a reputation from your cumulative life's work, and that's what gives you the ability to signal boost your concerns to a wider audience (including, most importantly, the media) in the first place.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#209

Post by tyingq »

kube-system wrote: post #51
tyingq wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. Amazon, should though, be aware of the Streisand effect. They are amplifying their problem by firing people instead of, say...reprimanding them.

> Amazon.com Inc (AMZN.O) said on Tuesday it terminated two employees, who criticized the working conditions It doesn't sound like Amazon is attempting to hide anything here.

By firing them, they are reinforcing the idea they they don't care about working conditions. A reprimand likely wouldn't have made the news.

I assume they want less buzz about work conditions.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#210

Post by peterangular »

_bxg1 wrote: post #193

A few months ago I was in the job market and got a call from a recruiter at Amazon. I flatly told them that I wasn't interested in working for Amazon on ethical grounds. At the time it was purely out of principle, but apparently it was a good decision for my self-interest as well. I wonder how long they can keep this stuff up before they start seriously damaging their desirability as a workplace, the way Facebook has…

I've shot down both Facebook and Walmart citing ethics - I'm surprised it didn't get me on a blackout list because FB keeps hitting me up bi-weekly even with COVID.

I think this is going to get more popular as time goes on... I'd rather work for a company that's not abusing it's workers/the government.

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