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Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#91

Post by mcherm »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #41
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing. I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts. edit: added play

I think people are outraged not because it's illegal, but because it's unconscionable. I think the general understanding is people shouldn't have outside-work activities be held against them, maybe it's time for the law to catch up. It's pretty easy to come up with a lot of absurd and "legal" at-will policies (e.g. we'll fire anybody who watches porn)

> It's pretty easy to come up with a lot of absurd and "legal" at-will policies (e.g. we'll fire anybody who watches porn)

My favorite which would work in much of the US is "We'll fire anybody who registers with the Republican party." (Or Democratic, if you prefer.) Especially in a state where registration is required in order to participate in the primary. It is legal, but, I believe, completely unacceptable to just about everyone.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#92

Post by Sharlin »

forgotmylogin2 wrote: post #44
advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

> Amazon is straight up firing these people for expressing their personal opinions. That's not exactly uncommon in the modern world. Especially with the prevalence of social media, expressing your opinion on anything publicly could cost you your job. Same thing happened to James Damore. If you want to remain employed, you need to be quite cautious about what you post on non-anonymous social media. In fact, I'd advise…

> That's not exactly uncommon in the modern world

It is uncommon in the parts of modern world that have reasonably modern employee protection laws. Yes, most jurisdictions recognize that employers may expect a certain degree of loyalty from their employees. But unless you're a very high-level executive, just disagreeing with your employer's conduct is absolutely no legal grounds for termination.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#93

Post by Aloha »

advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

If I criticized my employer in the national media, I'd expect to be shown the door too.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#94

Post by toomuchtodo »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #80
sfkdjf9j3j wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way it includes unnecessary and imprecise technobabble, and states something obvious as if the author assumes the people who were fired are too stupid to have considered it makes it patronizing and unhelpful. Do you really think people are going to read that comment and come away with useful advice?

I don't find "inversely proportional" to be techno babble, but then I'm a techie who studied lots of math. You'd be surprised how many techies (especially the younger ones) don't see the above advice as being obvious.

> You'd be surprised how many techies (especially the younger ones) don't see the above advice as being obvious.

It's only obvious if you've accepted the status quo ("at will employment", no worker protections). Many other developed countries have substantial worker protections [1], and I see questioning this as work towards progress in having those same worker protections in the US. Young folks haven't been ground down long enough by "The System" to accept that what is wrong is what will always be, which is awesome!

If your employer can fire you, and you have no recourse, for illustrating their abusive work environment (Amazon warehouses, in this case), that's a problem! What's more shocking (IMHO) are those who publicly comment that this is acceptable in a developed nation. The house is on fire, don't snicker at those trying to put the fire out.

[1] https://www.ituc-csi.org/new-ituc-global-rights-index-the (New ITUC Global Rights Index - The world’s worst countries for workers)

The ITUC Global Rights Index rates countries from one to five according to 97 indicators, with an overall score placing countries in one to five rankings.

1 – Irregular violations of rights: 18 countries including Denmark and Uruguay

2 – Repeated violations of rights: 26 countries including Japan and Switzerland

3 – Regular violations of rights: 33 countries including Chile and Ghana

4 – Systematic violations of rights: 30 countries including Kenya and the USA ranked below 77 other countries

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#95

Post by wpietri »

aabeshou wrote: post #65
rochester46 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote is straight up incorrect. Amazon doesn't restrict, and actually encourages employees to talk about their work conditions, as long as said employee makes sure to say "these opinions are my own and do not represent Amazon's official stance" and that anything you are saying is actually true. You certainly do not need "corporate justification and approval from executives". I am curious where Reuters pulled tha…

as long as they are factual* * make sure to use corporate-approved facts

Exactly. If Amazon is the final arbiter of what's false or what's disparaging, then the policy is not valuable as worker protection.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#96

Post by tehjoker »

paxys wrote: post #88

This is likely an unpopular opinion among the tech crowd here but I find it very hypocritical to publicly criticize your employer for their practices while expecting to continue enjoying cushy paychecks directly fueled by them. You cannot simultaneously be an activist and a cog in the wheel. Pick a side, and then accept the consequences.

That's why we need labor unions. When you are alone, speaking up gets you fired and maybe also persecuted by the company. When you are together, a company has a much tougher time dismissing your concerns.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#97

Post by supernova87a »

paxys wrote: post #88

This is likely an unpopular opinion among the tech crowd here but I find it very hypocritical to publicly criticize your employer for their practices while expecting to continue enjoying cushy paychecks directly fueled by them. You cannot simultaneously be an activist and a cog in the wheel. Pick a side, and then accept the consequences.

Also, as pointed out elsewhere, people (or the general sentiment) on these discussions seemed to be all in favor of firing those who hold unpopular / conservative personal opinions, but now disagree with firing those with liberal opinions.

If that's not viewpoint discrimination, I don't know what is.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#98

Post by atomi »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #55
atomi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, This should give you a hint about this person's intention. Their argument is a classic appeal to authority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Could you elaborate? I think I either misunderstand this type of argument or you meant to use a different link. If you look at my history, I am hardly a proponent of all things Amazon. I recognize their strengths and their weaknesses. It is important to clear eyes about all this.

When you appeal an argument to a higher authority, in your case the law, it's an attempt to shutdown further discussion. In other words, it's not an argument as to the merits of the points being made. You're just not addressing the points at all and appealing to "a higher authority."

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#99

Post by Sharlin »

alehul wrote: post #12
advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

Amazon is firing them for commenting publicly on its business. If you were employed by a company and disparaged them publicly, breaking company policy, would you believe that your employment with them is in any way protected?

Yes, in just about any Western jurisdiction that isn't the US. The degree of loyalty expected from a rank-and-file employee is not very high. If you're a high-level executive it's different. Great power, great responsibility and so on.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#100

Post by tehjoker »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #13
advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing. I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts. edit: added play

Of course the powerful can use their powers for evil, we have to criticise them for it.
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