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Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

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Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#31

Post by wayoutthere »

ghaff wrote: post #12
hanoz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly unlikely he's been furloughed. I don't think a big tech company would make the mistake of having staff on that scheme working anyway, they would be in a lot of trouble if they did, but as the limit is £2500 per month I'm sure the OP would be on noticeable less than 80% of his previous pay as a London tech lead if he had been. The 80% rate of the furlough scheme does seem to have prompted a lot of companie…

A previous employer cut everyone's salary by 20% during the dot-com bust and I've heard the 20% figure thrown around quite a bit over the past month--with or without a reduction in hours. It seems to be a figure that a lot of companies settle on as a significant cost savings in the aggregate while not being such a big cut that (most) people can no longer afford to pay their bills or otherwise feel forced to just walk…

The 20% number comes from the expected revenue hit companies are looking at. Honestly, they're doing it because they can get away with it right now. What do you want to bet that many of these 20% salary reductions will be permanent?

In my view, these companies can fuck right off. They're not paying their workers more when they have a great quarter, so why should they pay people less when things aren't going well? I suspect the companies that cut pay / furloughed a significant amount of workers will have a hard time hiring when this is all over.

Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#32

Post by yardie »

toyg wrote: post #9

> we are being put at 80% pay / 80% time. Uhm, you want to check the fine prints. If you've been furloughed , which is typically what people on "80%" are, then the Treasury is paying your salary, but you're NOT supposed to work AT ALL. If you are actually working, you and your company are effectively committing benefit fraud. > Do you think in the current climate it would be doable to start freelancing Everything is…

It sounds like they are working 4 instead of 5 days (32 out of 40 hours) which is what 80% of FTE equates to.

Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#33

Post by sixdimensional »

hanoz wrote: post #10
toyg wrote: post #9

> we are being put at 80% pay / 80% time. Uhm, you want to check the fine prints. If you've been furloughed , which is typically what people on "80%" are, then the Treasury is paying your salary, but you're NOT supposed to work AT ALL. If you are actually working, you and your company are effectively committing benefit fraud. > Do you think in the current climate it would be doable to start freelancing Everything is…

It's highly unlikely he's been furloughed. I don't think a big tech company would make the mistake of having staff on that scheme working anyway, they would be in a lot of trouble if they did, but as the limit is £2500 per month I'm sure the OP would be on noticeable less than 80% of his previous pay as a London tech lead if he had been. The 80% rate of the furlough scheme does seem to have prompted a lot of companie…

I can tell you that some tech companies including the one in which I work (not FAANG sized though) are definitely doing real furloughs by name, the very legal definition- most staff are furloughed 25% of the time and told we are not allowed to work or the company will be liable. Some staff functions are furloughed 100%.

Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#34

Post by themodelplumber »

dep_b wrote: post #25

The requirements to start as a freelancer, in any kind of economic climate: * You have an accountant * You are not afraid to draw up a contract * Have a skill that has higher demand than supply and will remain so for a foreseeable time * Have worked on paid side projects a few times * One existing customer is interested in hiring you for 3 months (worth of money) or more Ensure you set aside 50% of which 2/3rds for t…

Huh. I know a lot of people who did almost none of this and freelanced their way into successful businesses. Why is having an accountant necessary? Where I live, even simple books from the office supply store and basic tax software will tell you what you need to know as a beginner. Personally I operated my business just fine for 15 years without an accountant.

Drawing up a contract, similar, but here I would certainly mention that you can also consult a professional if needed, like a business consultant or attorney. You can also write a letter contract and communicate well enough that contracts don't matter that much in the end, which is the case for a lot of freelancers, guessing the majority.

Knowing what skill has high demand is less important than finding a team or business that likes you and needs you. If you are in tech, someone probably needs your help. Many times they will find a way for you to stick around anyway, if it's a good psychological complement.

If no one can pay you for three months worth of money, you get to decide how long you hang in there. Personally I found a veteran graphic designer who was excited to work together and started sending work immediately. Within 3 years of that I was turning down more work than I was accepting. But there was never any promise of income.

Setting aside 50% would have been impossible due to medical bills at the time. I was lucky to have free rent via the in-laws and a wife who was working as well. Still, when freelancing picked up the problem quickly became burnout and setting boundaries. This has been the same with many of my peers. Many of us went through 2008 and even the dot com crash together. Demand was never really a problem except at the very start, but the perception of an urgent need to hustle for every last client can easily break you.

Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#35

Post by evanmoran »

It's completely dependent on your ability to close the deal. If you can get the business then yes, if not then no, and it's hard to tell which will happen without you trying to get a deal signed. I'd recommend reaching out informally to places you have contacts and going from there. If you get no traction then you know the answer.

Also, make sure you setup the contract with short milestones as some companies will slow in paying.

Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#36

Post by dep_b »

themodelplumber wrote: post #34
dep_b wrote: post #25

The requirements to start as a freelancer, in any kind of economic climate: * You have an accountant * You are not afraid to draw up a contract * Have a skill that has higher demand than supply and will remain so for a foreseeable time * Have worked on paid side projects a few times * One existing customer is interested in hiring you for 3 months (worth of money) or more Ensure you set aside 50% of which 2/3rds for t…

Huh. I know a lot of people who did almost none of this and freelanced their way into successful businesses. Why is having an accountant necessary? Where I live, even simple books from the office supply store and basic tax software will tell you what you need to know as a beginner. Personally I operated my business just fine for 15 years without an accountant. Drawing up a contract, similar, but here I would certainl…

My accountants saved me enough money every year to be basically free, while I don't need to worry about all kinds of stuff. I did my taxes myself often as well, but I didn't like to do it (instead of doing billable work or having spare time).

Contracts: I really suck at them. I rarely do them. I got lucky so far, perhaps 2 clients that managed to pinch me but then again assholes will be assholes with or without contracts. But hourly work is easier than fixed price. Especially when it goes sour.

> Knowing what skill has high demand is less important than finding a team or business that likes you and needs you

True. I'm a specialist in mobile remote communication solutions which should be somewhat sought after right now but I can't find matching clients. I should have networked way more the last years than I did, and I don't consider myself a bad networker.

> Still, when freelancing picked up the problem quickly became burnout and setting boundaries.

The worst thing that always happens that after a slump in work I'm going basically YES YES YES YES YES YES to all work and I've never been in the situation that when one job finally came through at least two others I've YES'ed came at more or less the same time.

So going from 0 to 60 hours per week for a few weeks. Which after a week or four really starts to turn into 30 hours worth of productivity while being behind your computer for 70.

Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#37

Post by colinloretz »

Definitely. With such an economic contraction, you're going to see companies hiring contractors for a while because they don't have to commit to the full overhead of an employee. We saw a huge influx of freelancers in 2008-2009 and as the economy grew pre-covid19, more and more freelancers took jobs at companies because of salaries, benefits, etc. We will very likely see a repeat of that.

Things to make sure of: make sure your rates take into account your overhead. You're going to have to pay for your own insurance, pay withholding taxes, business licenses, account for some time off/sick days, etc.

After years of freelancing, attempting to set aside money for taxes and never paying into retirement, I started using an app called https://www.catch.co/ to track all of this and it allowed me to focus more on freelancing and less on the overhead.

Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#38

Post by dpau »

AznHisoka wrote: post #24

Just anecdotally, I've been hearing from friends that work from Upwork hasn't been affected from COVID. I think platforms like Upwork/Fiverr might even be more enticing for employers during recessions. Of course the pay there is not very competitive, but just giving you 1 data point.

personally on upwork i have noticed a decrease in "good" job postings and an increase in proposals. anecdotal. but i think it's a mistake to assume that any business has not been fundamentally affected by covid in some way.

Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#39

Post by hinkley »

rwieruch wrote: post #16

It depends on your clients. Don't put all your eggs in one basket which I did. My two current clients in Germany are heavily invested in the automotive industry. They have everything on stop for the manufacturing and their software department is not working their full 100% capacity. On the other side, I hear lots of good news from people who are bringing physical services to the web. The digital revolution is just st…

I worked at a consultancy that advertised some pretty high-brow ideals, in several disparate areas I care deeply about. But pretty quickly 75% of their revenue came from just two customers and ideals are a luxury you can’t afford in that kind of a situation. It became a body shop in all but name. Even a founder left shortly after I did.

I really struggled with the sense of betrayal from that and it’s a big data point in the “ask more questions” strategy I’m trying to cultivate.

You can’t fire a customer when they are your only customer. At the very least, no matter how things get on any contract, save some time an energy to keep courting new revenue from other sources. That’s a big part of the job, and one I don’t think we as developers have enough perspective on.

Re: Ask HN: In the current crisis is starting freelancing doable?

#40

Post by valuearb »

wayoutthere wrote: post #31
ghaff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A previous employer cut everyone's salary by 20% during the dot-com bust and I've heard the 20% figure thrown around quite a bit over the past month--with or without a reduction in hours. It seems to be a figure that a lot of companies settle on as a significant cost savings in the aggregate while not being such a big cut that (most) people can no longer afford to pay their bills or otherwise feel forced to just walk…

The 20% number comes from the expected revenue hit companies are looking at. Honestly, they're doing it because they can get away with it right now. What do you want to bet that many of these 20% salary reductions will be permanent? In my view, these companies can fuck right off. They're not paying their workers more when they have a great quarter, so why should they pay people less when things aren't going well? I s…

It’s kind of hard to pay 100% when you don’t have the same revenues.

And what they pay is driven by market economics, in good quarters and bad.

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