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Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

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Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#161

Post by Ericson2314 »

robocat wrote: post #77
yorwba wrote: post #2

The traditional Mongolian script is notable for being written vertically, which breaks a lot of assumptions usually made in UI design. The Mongolian president's personal website is an example of designing around vertical text: https://president.mn/mng/

Here’s an example of a form: https://president.mn/mng/?page_id=72 It shows multiple design issues, how some are resolved and some are not. From Wikipedia: “it is the only vertical script that is written from left to right. (All other vertical writing systems are written right to left.) This is because the Uyghurs rotated their script 90 degrees anticlockwise to emulate the Chinese writing system.“

And yet the english characters are rotated clockwise?

Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#162

Post by LatteLazy »

WilTimSon wrote: post #8

UI issues aside, I think this is quite fabulous. Preserving their traditional alphabet and de-colonializing their culture is a good thing, no matter how I look at it. Although I do wonder how easy it will be for the whole nation to switch from one alphabet to another when they're so drastically different. I don't suppose any Mongolians are here to give their input?

Yeah, instead of spending the time learning English or Chinese or useful skills, kids can now waste decades on their leaders' ~~nationalistic~~ ethnocentric fools errand...

Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#163

Post by ggreer »

ken wrote: post #152
lopmotr wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a fit of nationalism, a former colonial power takes a step to sever ties with its continental neighbor. Does it still sound good when you look at it that way?

Sounds even better! Is there some example of colonialism which you think is worth preserving, to the destruction of their culture? Should Ireland stop being Irish, should Korea become a Japanese colony again, or should we reunite the USSR?

If the US had stayed a colony, it would have abolished slavery 30 years earlier than it did.[1]

Hong Kong would probably be better off if it had remained a British colony.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#164

Post by koheripbal »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #109
sametmax wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Preserving their traditional alphabet and de-colonializing their culture is a good thing, no matter how I look at it There are downsides to any situation. E.G: - cost - available resources for education and work - adding one more obstacles for different cultures to be able to understand each other I'm french, and in my country, language protection is a big thing. It's also why we have such a terrible ability to spe…

> In my country, language protection is a big thing. It's also why we have such a terrible ability to speak english The latter does not inevitably follow from the former. "Language protection" has been a big thing in Finland inasmuch as the Finnish intelligentsia has historically preferred coining new words from Finnish roots instead of adopting foreign vocabulary (so tietokone for ‘computer’) and there is heavy stat…

> The latter does not inevitably follow from the former.

Some subject always loses out when you need to teach something extra. Education is not infinite.

Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#165

Post by koheripbal »

nemoniac wrote: post #132

The Irish language should consider returning to its tradidional alphabet too. Gaelic type has a certain elegance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_type

There's also significant value in everyone on Earth speaking the same language fluently.

Efficient communication is probably the most important factor in peace.

Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#166

Post by koheripbal »

fiblye wrote: post #69
sametmax wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it will have the opposite effect. Once we see the benefit of being able to communicate freely with anybody, and losing the protective aspect of being able to communicate in a language others can't understand, I think people will lose interest in local languages and dialect? Why learn them when you can just translate them when you need them? What do they bring, except some aesthetical pleasure? Given the work…

Waves of nationalism come and go. If you've got a big enough population, you can easily promote your native language as superior to others because it can express X, Y, and Z beautiful concepts easily while filthy foreign languages can't. There were a few campaigns where various western countries tried promoting their alphabets over native writing systems. Some succeeded (e.g. Vietnamese) and many others failed. Tryin…

Globalization will continue to unify language.

It'll be interesting to see the hybrid blend of English/Chinese/Spanish/Arabic that everyone learns in school.

Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#167

Post by Ericson2314 »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #161
robocat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s an example of a form: https://president.mn/mng/?page_id=72 It shows multiple design issues, how some are resolved and some are not. From Wikipedia: “it is the only vertical script that is written from left to right. (All other vertical writing systems are written right to left.) This is because the Uyghurs rotated their script 90 degrees anticlockwise to emulate the Chinese writing system.“

And yet the english characters are rotated clockwise?

Oh duh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdian_alphabet the syriac whence it came was right-to-left, and by rotating the English in the other direction they both go down.

Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#168

Post by cmehdy »

notechback wrote: post #140
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roughly, through what means should we fix it though? :)

I don't know about English but other languages have a central body that manages the language, eg implementing spelling reforms. Eg German and French have a simplification every few decades (done by a central process) and a regular process for introducing/recognising new words. In German the words are based on common usage; in French more by committee decision as they want to avoid too many loan words - so "digital" i…

The Académie Française tries really hard to be prescriptive, and perhaps that works for the handful of elitist writers hanging out around Saint-Germain-des-Prés but it definitely can't keep up with the connected world, the language that is actually spoken and used by everyone, and often gives in by being descriptive with a noticeable lag and awkwardness. It is more of a self-congratulatory circle of elites trying to uphold a (400 year-old) tradition for the fun of it, and the population often decides to use vastly different words regardless of what is considered a "real word" in French.

Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#169

Post by KMag »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #86
ah-ha wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like Arabic script written vertically. I was expecting something closer to Chinese writing.

Yes, it is derived from the Aramaic alphabet like the Arabic alphabet. The fun fact is that all alphabets in the world ultimately derive from the Phoenician alphabet as it spread West, North East, and South East.

Well, major alphabets currently in wide use, excluding Korean, Japanese, and maybe a few others.

Hebrew: Aleph, Bet, Gimel, Dalet, ...

Greek: Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, ...

Also, there's evidence that the Phoenician alphabet evolved from the Demotic alphabet, which was basically a late cursive script evolved from Egyptian hieroglyphs.

Re: Mongolia to restore traditional alphabet

#170

Post by nemoniac »

s_dev wrote: post #145
nemoniac wrote: post #132

The Irish language should consider returning to its tradidional alphabet too. Gaelic type has a certain elegance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_type

I used seán as a username once. I gave up after I realised it was fine on my own personal computer but once I jumped on to an azerty keyboard or something simpler tasks just became more difficult -- finding the letter with a fada just results in searching the charmap rather than keyboard. You can have fadas in URLs e.g. seán.dev using a technique called Punycode. Ogham is another Irish script and is vertical but uniq…

I have síntí fada in my name too but I also frequently write in languages that use other accents so I have my keyboard mapping set up in software to type them easily. For example AltGr-a-' for á.
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