Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you do, he will retaliate (by, for example, withholding badly needed aid) Has this actually occurred? I know NY asked for way more ventilators than they got, but as I understood it they were giving them out "just in time" rather than up front in case they were needed more elsewhere.
There are also lots of reports of confiscations of PPE: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-f... https://www.firehouse.com/safety-health/ppe/news/21133559/fe... https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/fema-denies-involvement... I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but this smells real bad to me. The reports of confiscations are coming from democratic states, not republican states. And it seems like…
California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
251–260 of 319 posts
Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
> which indirectly will cause more deaths through decimated budgets of social and health programs. Do you have any actual data for this?
Unless you're arguing the budgets won't be cut or frozen, the data is the success metrics of those programs.
You're saying that cutting (meaning reducing, not zeroing) budgets of social and health programs can kill up to 0.5% of the entire population of a state? Because that's the CFR of the virus.
You're aware that even programs on reduced budgets can offer a reduced set of services, and prioritize the ones with most impact? (i.e. most lifesaving potential). And that their work will be far easier if there are fewer total sick people in the system? Have you balanced the effects of that versus letting the virus run amok so that the tax receipts aren't impacted?
That's why I'm asking for numbers. Otherwise "a bad economy will kill more people" is a fuzzy assertion that sounds "cool" and "contrarian" but has no actual substance.
Here are my numbers btw:
"Our finding that all-cause mortality decreased during the Great Recession is consistent with previous studies. Some categories of cause-specific mortality, notably cardiovascular disease, also follow this pattern, and are more pronounced for certain gender and age groups. Our study also suggests that the recent recession contributed to the growth in deaths from overdoses of prescription drugs in working-age adults in metropolitan areas. Additional research investigating the mechanisms underlying the health consequences of macroeconomic conditions is warranted."[1]
In the last big recession, deaths due to certain causes went up but overall mortality decreased. So what you're saying definitively did not happen in the only other comparable situation.
Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
#253Also relevant is that the states of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Delaware made a similar pact today. Edit: Massachusetts has also joined this pact as well (I thought it was surprising that it hadn't when I first read the news).
If only there was some sort of multi-state organization through which individual states could pull together on issues spanning multiple states. Such a "federal" approach would be very useful. If only someone had thought of this years ago. Of course it would have to be staffed by people selected and respected by all, but surely there is some way of doing that too.
It would be especially good if that kind of organization had limited and agreed-to powers that were written down in some sort of document, and then those constraints were respected and not repeatedly gamed around.
Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
#254Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
#255As someone who lives in one of these states, I'm nonplussed at the announcement. It doesn't really seem to say anything concrete that I can tell. "We've agreed that we will use metrics...we are still deciding what these metrics will be." I thought the Stay Home, Stay Healthy order (in Washington state) wasn't unreasonable and wasn't just political babble, but I don't really know what to make of this piece. Anyone wan…
The context here is that Trump said earlier today that he was in charge of when to "open up the states." This (along with the NE pact) is probably a big "no, you're not" to Trump.
NE pact article: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/nyregion/coronavirus-new-...
““”
Asked whether the collaboration among the states was a rebuke to the President Trump, who has said the decision about businesses reopening was his to make, Gov. Philip D. Murphy of New Jersey said only that he was focused on making decisions based on facts and science, and he reiterated that an economic recovery was inextricable from a public health recovery.
Gov. Tom Wolf of Pennsylvania echoed Mr. Murphy’s comments in responding to a similar question.
“The sequence,” Mr. Wolf said, “is you’ve got to get people healthy first, and then you can reopen the economy.”
Interviewed later on CNN, Mr. Cuomo was more pointed in his remarks on who bears responsibility for restoring life to something like normal.
Trump administration officials, the governor said, could have enacted a nationwide shutdown to stem the spread of the virus.
“They didn’t,” he said. “They said we’re going to leave it to the states. Now all of a sudden when it comes time to open the economy, now it’s back to the federal government’s responsibility?”
“””
Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
#256I have yet to see a cogent validation of the total lives saved by lockdown when considering all other health impacts such as suicide rates from isolation, heart disease/stroke/diabetes from extra sedentary lifestyle etc. not to mention the suicide by fentanyl in a subsequent economic recession/depression. Any aware of such an analysis?
I'm generally worried about this sort of thing as well, and wish people were looking into this.
However, we have pretty good estimates on how many people will die if we don't shelter and isolate, and I think that trumps what would inevitably be some very vague guesses as to how many people might die as side effects of sheltering and isolation.
And regardless, many of those potential deaths could be preventable with the right focus on mental health and financial support during and after the lockdown. (Not saying we do have the right focus; I expect we definitely don't. But that's not a reason to give up on isolation.)
Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
My brother lives in Oregon. He was complaining to me the other day that Oregon's requirement that you are not allowed to pump your own gas is an obvious COVID transmission vector. To get gas in Oregon, he follows these steps: 1.) pull up to gas station 2.) Roll down window to hand attendant (who isn't wearing a mask, nor is required to) his debit card. 3.) Get card back from attendant. 4.) Sanitize the debit card 5.)…
Oregon has already lifted the restriction on pumping your own gas, for exactly this reason.
I wonder if New Jersey has done the same ..
Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
#258Well, that was quick. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22828354 Today it is pandemic resolution. I fear that tomorrow, it might be economic ties, lockstep voting at the federal level, and National Guard drills, deployments, and contingency planning, where the West Coast slowly splits away from the rest of the country, with other states teaming up and following suit. This isn't the end, and it's the only appropria…
If the Fed had done the right thing by raising interest rates, and the government didn't interfere in the market with massive spending, USD could have remained the reserve currency for the foreseeable future. But nobody in Washington has the guts to do the right thing. Especially the Fed. Also, if this "pact" leaves the United States, that is when I'll be leaving the shithole called CA. I'm not paying for the free ri…
It's a bit funny to see capitalist corporations making obscene amounts of money violating laws and ethics and trickling a bit of that ill-gained wealth down to software engineers, who then turn around and say everyone should have wealth like them and not need gov't assistance when their own company is one of the drivers of inequality...
Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
Instead of "mini-country", I would call just call it a group of united states.
>a group of united states. Pardon, English being my 2nd language, would it be a confederation or a union?
Probably depends on whether or not there are articles involved.
Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact
#260In my area (Vancouver Island, just north of this "pact") we are seeing something very odd. People are going out. Families are having BBQs in local parks. Restaurants aren't letting people dine in, but the grocery stores are operating essentially normally. I'm near the water and am seeing kayaks and boats out like any normal weekend. Vacation properties are in use. RV parks have customers. I see groups of old people c…
Because people realize that kayaking isn’t a risk so why would they avoid it? This is why no restrictions should be imposed that don’t have a very clear and obvious effect. If that means they must rely on people’s ability to do the right thing (e.g not take the bus to go kayaking, not go places where it’s crowded) then so be it. It’s better to have a sustainable and accepted lockdown that is 95% water tight, than an…
New Zealand has banned any sports where someone could require emergency services: so no sea sports, no mountain sports, no hunting etc. This is in addition to other restrictions.
Everybody is too busy to help, and helping rescue others puts the rescuers at risk of Covid.