California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact • Hacker News Board

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#101

Post by jschwartzi » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #51

mullingitover wrote: post #14

This is great, and it's a big chunk of population, but I keep feeling like we could do better. For example, these three States could do a great job, but there's nothing stopping a bunch of the other States from bungling it (like, say, ignoring health experts and exempting certain groups from mass gathering restrictions). Then those States end up exporting infectious individuals into the States which are doing things…

Then again, that one group of states would become a Single Point of Failure. If that centralized and coordinated leadership is incompetent and/or corrupt, there is no Plan B.

Except that in a federal system like the United States each individual state government can mount a real response like we've done in Washington where the epidemiological curve has flattened significantly in the past 3 or 4 weeks versus where it was heading before we began social distancing.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#102

Post by _bxg1 » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

yingw787 wrote: post #23

Well, that was quick. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22828354 Today it is pandemic resolution. I fear that tomorrow, it might be economic ties, lockstep voting at the federal level, and National Guard drills, deployments, and contingency planning, where the West Coast slowly splits away from the rest of the country, with other states teaming up and following suit. This isn't the end, and it's the only appropria…

> National Guard drills, deployments, and contingency planning

That seems pretty far-fetched.

Much more likely (and welcome) would be a sort of "legal coup", where the states that still have functioning governments band together in the task of reshaping the federal government through voting and legislative power.

We're certainly approaching a breaking point in the dysfunction of the federal government and its inability to do its job and serve a society; something has got to give. But I still think any kind of civil war scenario remains far, far out of the question.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#103

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #67

DoreenMichele wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, I would be vastly more comfortable if the answer were "No, Doreen, you really are as dumb as you think. Their plan is 1... 2.... 3...." The US governmental system has a long history of injecting bureaucratic nonsense that takes on a life of its own and ends up with outcomes like "teaching to the test" instead of being a net benefit. I would feel differently if this were an announcement of a joint task f…

Yeah, this falls far short of what these states should be saying, something like "We're feverishly working on building out the infrastructure for wide-scale population testing and tracing, but we will not lift shelter-in-place until we're confident the infrastructure is in place in all three states to contain any outbreaks". I have the same beef with Mayor Breed in San Francisco, who has otherwise shown standout lead…

I was just talking to someone yesterday about impaired vasodilation as a possible explanation for why people are dying at such high rates on ventilators. I'm hopeful that we will soon have some better treatments in place that will make this infection less deadly and thus less of a boogeyman.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#104

Post by lozaning » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #73

DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

As someone who lives in one of these states, I'm nonplussed at the announcement. It doesn't really seem to say anything concrete that I can tell. "We've agreed that we will use metrics...we are still deciding what these metrics will be." I thought the Stay Home, Stay Healthy order (in Washington state) wasn't unreasonable and wasn't just political babble, but I don't really know what to make of this piece. Anyone wan…

My brother lives in Oregon. He was complaining to me the other day that Oregon's requirement that you are not allowed to pump your own gas is an obvious COVID transmission vector. To get gas in Oregon, he follows these steps: 1.) pull up to gas station 2.) Roll down window to hand attendant (who isn't wearing a mask, nor is required to) his debit card. 3.) Get card back from attendant. 4.) Sanitize the debit card 5.)…

I drove through oregon a while back for the eclipse for the first time ever. I'd already filled my tank a quarter of the way by the time the attendant came out and yelled at me. I was so confused.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#105

Post by celdon25 » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

From article 1, section 10 of the U.S. Constitution:

"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."

This scares me a bit. This agreement seems innocuous at first, but the constitution expressly forbids these (and all) kinds of agreements between states for a reason. A small pact like this today could tomorrow become leverage for secessionism or otherwise a power struggle with the federal government.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#106

Post by renewiltord » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

CodeCube wrote: post #72

new_time wrote: post #20

I love the United States' flexible decentralized model. Different states have sufficient autonomy to tinker and try different approaches, allowing the best ideas to emerge from the collective. It's one reason why the US is such a dynamic place, similar to Europe but with the additional benefit of unified language, culture (broadly), economy, and high level regulations. It's truly a great system.

Yeah ... it's a great system unless you live in a part of the country that is not trying a smart approach; a place where "best ideas" are routinely dismissed as partisan politics.

Is it, though? Run your states the way you want to. Maybe your comrades in Texas prefer a running economy to lives. This is a good thing that you can make that choice.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#107

Post by aboodman » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

rlt wrote: post #77

lisper wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right. One of the rules of the game is that you're not allowed to say anything negative about Donald Trump even if (perhaps especially if) it is factually correct. If you do, he will retaliate (by, for example, withholding badly needed aid). So the governors have to speak in code. Listen to Newsome's news conference today and the answer he gave to a reporter about his reaction to Trump's announcement that the…

> If you do, he will retaliate (by, for example, withholding badly needed aid) Has this actually occurred? I know NY asked for way more ventilators than they got, but as I understood it they were giving them out "just in time" rather than up front in case they were needed more elsewhere.

Yes, it was withheld for several days for Michigan:

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2020/03/28/aft...

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#108

Post by tathougies » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #42

new_time wrote: post #20

I love the United States' flexible decentralized model. Different states have sufficient autonomy to tinker and try different approaches, allowing the best ideas to emerge from the collective. It's one reason why the US is such a dynamic place, similar to Europe but with the additional benefit of unified language, culture (broadly), economy, and high level regulations. It's truly a great system.

It's not necessarily as flexible as to encompass such sub-federal cooperation: "No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_O…

States make pacts all the time, without federal congressional oversight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_compact

In Virgina v Tennessee, in 1893, the Supreme Court allows states to make compacts in all matters reserved to the states and the enforcement of which does not encumber federal rights.

And for the most part, at the consent of Congress, states keep armies and air forces (and many keep navies) as guaranteed by the second amendment.

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#109

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

jonas21 wrote: post #98

JPKab wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother lives in Oregon. He was complaining to me the other day that Oregon's requirement that you are not allowed to pump your own gas is an obvious COVID transmission vector. To get gas in Oregon, he follows these steps: 1.) pull up to gas station 2.) Roll down window to hand attendant (who isn't wearing a mask, nor is required to) his debit card. 3.) Get card back from attendant. 4.) Sanitize the debit card 5.)…

When pumping your own gas, you touch a pump handle and card reader that have been handled by hundreds of other people in the last few hours. Is that any better?

You can use disposable gloves and you aren't interacting directly with someone who may do something like cough on you.

I would say "Definitely yes."

Re: California, Oregon and Washington announce western states pact

#110

Post by anoncareer0212 » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:46 PM UTC

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #93

mullingitover wrote: post #14

This is great, and it's a big chunk of population, but I keep feeling like we could do better. For example, these three States could do a great job, but there's nothing stopping a bunch of the other States from bungling it (like, say, ignoring health experts and exempting certain groups from mass gathering restrictions). Then those States end up exporting infectious individuals into the States which are doing things…

> If only we had some sort of united group of all the States, where the response could be coordinated and centralized for maximum effectiveness. We do! It's called the United States government. I'll be letting the president know you're interested in him taking over and using his own ideas, instead of this one you seem to be particularly fond of. Or, if that idea is slightly terrifying for you, perhaps it's a better i…

You have no idea how crazy you sound as a European lol, the most straightforward way to put it is you're using an anonymous account on a website to dunk on someone in the comments section for implying they may care about avoiding infection during a pandemic