Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#101

Post by floatingatoll » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 7:44 PM UTC

Lio wrote: post #89

floatingatoll wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems a bit overblown to suggest that iOS is hiding this, when it openly warns you what it's doing when you use those Control Center buttons (messages shown quoted below) and leaves the buttons highlighted in a non-disabled state (in contrast to the disabled state that Airplane Mode usually displays one centimeter above): > Disconnecting Nearby Wi-Fi Until Tomorrow > Disconnecting Bluetooth Devices Until Tomorrow…

If it’s to meet user needs why can’t I opt to have real on/off in the control centre again? Personally I think this is more “Maybe later” passive aggressive crap from Apple. You know, where they take the option to say no out of the UI.

I made up an idea and tested it for this reply. It turns out you can use airplane mode for this already!

When you turn them off in airplane mode, they go completely off, and airplane mode remembers their on/off state distinctly from non-airplane mode. You get the cellular disable for free, since obviously if you're disabling wifi/bluetooth radios, you're disabling cellular radios too. (Otherwise what would be the point? Radio paranoia can't afford to be selective if it's truly justified paranoia, and cellular radios are infinitely louder than bluetooth/wifi ones.)

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#102

Post by hcnews » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 8:17 PM UTC

phipples wrote: post #5

In the bluetooth settings it literally states: "To improve device experience, apps and services can still scan for nearby devices at any time, even when Bluetooth is off." This can be completely turned off in scanning settings. The article title is kind of clickbaity.

You can't ask every user to RTFM. I have been toggling off bluetooth and location for a while to save battery but haven't noticed it. So, I am guessing a lot of users don't end up noticing it as well.

There are two issues with this implementation: 1. It's not privacy first. Toggling bluetooth should turn off everything. 2. It eats up battery/system-resources for a functionality that I don't want, causing me to have less control over my purchased device.

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#103

Post by zelly » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 8:20 PM UTC

I really got to get around to compiling one of those Android forks with telemetry turned off. As much as people like to criticize G, at least they released the code. The world would be a much worse place if both members of the phone duopoly hid their source code.

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#104

Post by diebeforei485 » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 8:42 PM UTC

phipples wrote: post #5

In the bluetooth settings it literally states: "To improve device experience, apps and services can still scan for nearby devices at any time, even when Bluetooth is off." This can be completely turned off in scanning settings. The article title is kind of clickbaity.

Off should mean off.

They could do what Apple does, perhaps.

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#105

Post by LatteLazy » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

It amazes me there are not more scandals yet with Google senior staff abusing the incredible data access they have. When it happens at the NSA, they can cover it up. But Google must be working very hard to keep it hush hush.

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#106

Post by reaperducer » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

hcnews wrote: post #102

phipples wrote: post #5

In the bluetooth settings it literally states: "To improve device experience, apps and services can still scan for nearby devices at any time, even when Bluetooth is off." This can be completely turned off in scanning settings. The article title is kind of clickbaity.

You can't ask every user to RTFM. I have been toggling off bluetooth and location for a while to save battery but haven't noticed it. So, I am guessing a lot of users don't end up noticing it as well. There are two issues with this implementation: 1. It's not privacy first. Toggling bluetooth should turn off everything. 2. It eats up battery/system-resources for a functionality that I don't want, causing me to have l…

Apple seems to have figured out a compromise.

There is an icon for turning off data to a radio (wifi or Bluetooth, for example), and an entirely different icon for if the radio is completely off.

If you have an iPhone, you can see this by turning off wifi and also your cellular connection. The wifi icon will change from color to black-on-white, while the cellular icon will change from color to white-on-black. This indicates that the wifi connection can still be used for things like AirDrop, but the cellular connection is off.

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#107

Post by reaperducer » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

floatingatoll wrote: post #100

pottertheotter wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet if you stopped 100 people and asked them to turn off Bluetooth or WiFi using the control center, and to pay attention to the messages you quoted, 100 of them would read those messages and see the colors of the buttons go from blue to white and tell you it means those services are completely deactivated. It absolutely does not warn you that it is keeping some of those services going in the background.

They would say so in the same breath as expecting their Apple Watch and Apple Pencil to continue working on their iPhone and iPad respectively, and objecting when they break. Telling them they shouldn't expect Bluetooth devices to continue working when they turn off Bluetooth will make them confused and eventually angry with you; "these devices don't require pairing, or pin codes, or manual connection crap, or any of…

Telling them they shouldn't expect Bluetooth devices to continue working when they turn off Bluetooth will make them confused and eventually angry with you

Yep. Many greybeards around here have fought the battle of "Why do I need a modem to access AOL? I got a disk in the mail, that should be good enough!"

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#108

Post by izacus » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:40 PM UTC

kibwen wrote: post #91

izacus wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was never true. It was annoyingly aggresive, had some annoying UI limitations (e.g. it wouldn't remember past trips) but it was never fully unable to function.

I recall it being true on my 2014-era phones (can't recall if it was a Moto G or a Pixel). I wrestled with turning Location Services on and off every time I wanted to navigate until I eventually gave up and left it on permanently. Opening the app with Location Services off would produce an (as far as I knew) undissmissable prompt demanding that Location Services be turned back on. Perhaps there was some way to work a…

Don't mix Location Services and Location History (confusing but similarly named things - Google at it's best :P).

Location Services provide... location. Without it, Maps obviously won't work. Location History sends your location to Google servers and you should probably turn it off.

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#109

Post by reaperducer » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

soared wrote: post #86

markstos wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked, Google Pay stores your credit card number in the cloud, which is not necessary. Both Apple Pay and Garmin Pay only store the card in an encrypted form locally. So giving Google my location history so I can also give them my credit card numbers when they don't need those either is not considered a feature. I use Google Maps frequently and have been bothered by any behavior changes there. My home a…

Google pay works on many different devices, something apple and garmin don't need at the same scale. I have google pay on a couple different laptops, phones, and tablets and wouldn't want to re-enter details 10 times.

I have google pay on a couple different laptops, phones, and tablets and wouldn't want to re-enter details 10 times.

If I save a credit card on my iPhone it saves that information to all of my iOS devices, and all of my Macs automatically. Even devices going back to 2012.

Re: Google can use Bluetooth to track phones even with Bluetooth turned off (2018)

#110

Post by samatman » Mon, Apr 13, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #106

hcnews wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't ask every user to RTFM. I have been toggling off bluetooth and location for a while to save battery but haven't noticed it. So, I am guessing a lot of users don't end up noticing it as well. There are two issues with this implementation: 1. It's not privacy first. Toggling bluetooth should turn off everything. 2. It eats up battery/system-resources for a functionality that I don't want, causing me to have l…

Apple seems to have figured out a compromise. There is an icon for turning off data to a radio (wifi or Bluetooth, for example), and an entirely different icon for if the radio is completely off. If you have an iPhone, you can see this by turning off wifi and also your cellular connection. The wifi icon will change from color to black-on-white, while the cellular icon will change from color to white-on-black. This in…

That's better than nothing, but my response to your post was to try it on my phone and then mutter to myself "okay, I guess"

I don't think most iPhone users browse HN to glean hints about the meaning of such opaque affordances, I had no idea that was what was happening when I turned off WiFi. I just figured it was actually off.