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Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

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Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meet the clients f2f a lot at the beginning of the project. Then I'm off to just writing code at home until it's time to deliver the project. It's just the nature of the projects I've taken on. I'm sure there are other kinds of software consulting where you need to meet them everyday, go to their standups and things like that. Fortunately, I've avoided that. I've developed a reputation for "going off and getting it…

So, if you can answer this question, which kind of projects do you work with mostly? Backoffice projects? Actually working on their main project? Maintenance of legacy systems? Or basically, what kind of projects companies put contractors on as opposed to their employees/founders?

If they could hire someone full-time to do it, they would, I think. I say this because every single company I've consulted for has tried to pressure me into coming on full-time. I always politely decline, but it is exhausting sometimes. I remind myself that I'm fortunate and that I should be grateful for the opportunities.

Either they can't hire fast enough, or they can't have the employees deliver fast enough.

Anyway, I don't know if there's a clear pattern.

Let me just list a few examples:

1. Large company. New CTO wanted a proof-of-concept. Big company with slow teams and processes. He got me to build it fast, and demoed it to the board, and got the leadership team excited.

2. Startup. CTO and the 3 engineers were mobile devs. They were raising their next round and wanted a web version of their product. Ended up building a full product that got them much bigger traction than they expected.

3. Startup. CEO and the investors thought that the team needed to focus on X. CTO thought that Y will actually get them product-market-fit. CTO asked me to build Y, and the CEO agreed, to preserve optionality. Turns out the CTO was right.

Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#92
post #70
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering if it's also not heavily dependent on the business structure that you set up for yourself, as a freelancer. It's a one-man company (for the most successful), a self-employed job (for the majority, or so I hear). The former eventually makes "products", while the latter may entertain a permanent rat race, wheel spin. Difference in point: how much of what you do leads to higher value at fixed cost (notably…

I'm constitutionally incapable of not commenting on threads like this :) So, yes, your description is accurate, though putting scare-quotes around "products" is necessary here. As folks grow in this profession, as I see it, there's three paths to success without ending up back in a W2: * make _actual_ products (which is my own eventual goal), or * find a way to productize their service (re-usable code blocks or proce…

Thanks so much for this detailed perspective. Taking notes. ;)

I totally see the counter-productivity in hourly billing. It's never sat well with me. In the end, clients want a final number more than some estimation of time × some price per period. It's just not cognitively the same to drop a final, single number (with conditions, a tight contract is also a benefit to both parties because nobody likes surprises).

There's also this argument about "price for the value it has for your client, not for the cost of your work". Which makes sense in a bubble but like most pop philosophy I feel it ignores that you're not alone selling the service, and agreeing to keep prices artificially high is generally called racket by most ethics, if not laws. (half-jokingly saying this, light-hearted but there is abuse in some domains)

The matter of the fact is nobody likes, again, paying twice the real cost of something for no good reason (today it's you billing, tomorrow it's you paying for accounting or legal or your freaking dental and car bills). There's a slippery slope there that I'm not willing to contribute to. I think it's just not sustainable, in this model businesses are soulless and die like crabs in a basket, and the customer + taxpayer (all of us, all of them) looses the most.

If I'm gonna bill high, it has to be because the work is genuinely harder or better, and I'm very much factoring "past years" in the how/why. It's hard to put in words, even between us technicals, let alone client profiles. It comes down to a scarcity fact: not many people can do it as well, and that's the price in dollar of the time of this small subset.

And indeed I don't think it's "$300 per hour" (that value is computed after the fact, it's a statistic!) It's one deliverable, reduced to a single number (from which you derive the others e.g. time frames, support cost, price of additional features, etc.)

It should basically be whatever a bigger business could earn selling the same product/service, minus overhead¹ and shareholder profits²— all for you, times some scarcity factor. If an employee makes an average $100K making it, we can see a freelancer making about twice as much for the same work (a factor of say 1.25 to 3-ish, this from my a#%, armchair intuition / business angle).

In actual geographical market forces, I see a lot more money going to whoever's established as one of the go-to's than an economist's account of what should be. Reality checks and all that. You need to know X, Y and Z (people, competition, client aggregator...) and go from there. Online is a bit more "opened", but far less than people would think. In a given niche, many people know many people. No niche = low multiplier factor (because low margin for all businesses, includng you), and low bonus (because low barrier of entry usually means less valuation as a market relatively to others).

Best advice I've ever heard: go to business consulting meetups and talks. These people totally understand that you come in with a skillset to offer services, that's the spirit. These people give the single most trusted recommendations, that's their actual job!

____

1: you also lose the larger skillset covered by a business team, I think overhead is actually worse for a freelancer if you don't outsource as much as possible (everything that's not your domain, may be better served, more efficiently too, by a professional of that domain).

Tangential but, this is my problem with all the pop-culture around entrepreneurship telling you to learn it all as if improvising ever was a good long-term strategy...

Recruiting solid, reliable, trustable suppliers; creating a synergy of behind-the-curtain business deals; these are much more valuable skills for sustainable success if you ask me. Learn to play with others, combine strengths and values.

2: this is where domain value plays in, e.g. bonus value for a freelancer in fancy biotech versus common web / mobile views.

Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#93

fwiw my current billing rate is $300/hr. Full stack. Mostly web. 18+ years of experience. San Francisco. Clients all over the Bay Area.

Got any spill-over you'd like to get rid of? Experienced freelancer/consultant here, no hand-holding necessary.

Sorry, no.

Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if you can answer this question, which kind of projects do you work with mostly? Backoffice projects? Actually working on their main project? Maintenance of legacy systems? Or basically, what kind of projects companies put contractors on as opposed to their employees/founders?

If they could hire someone full-time to do it, they would, I think. I say this because every single company I've consulted for has tried to pressure me into coming on full-time. I always politely decline, but it is exhausting sometimes. I remind myself that I'm fortunate and that I should be grateful for the opportunities. Either they can't hire fast enough, or they can't have the employees deliver fast enough. Anywa…

Part of the reason you can get stuff done fast is precisely because you're not part of the company. The 'you should come work here full time' scenarios almost never seem to really get that point. The moment you come on 'full time', their perception of you changes, expectations of you change, and you're rarely likely to deliver what you could because of these changes.

Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they could hire someone full-time to do it, they would, I think. I say this because every single company I've consulted for has tried to pressure me into coming on full-time. I always politely decline, but it is exhausting sometimes. I remind myself that I'm fortunate and that I should be grateful for the opportunities. Either they can't hire fast enough, or they can't have the employees deliver fast enough. Anywa…

Part of the reason you can get stuff done fast is precisely because you're not part of the company. The 'you should come work here full time' scenarios almost never seem to really get that point. The moment you come on 'full time', their perception of you changes, expectations of you change, and you're rarely likely to deliver what you could because of these changes.

Exactly! It reminds me of https://local.theonion.com/girlfriend-changes-man-into-someo... I'm tempted to send them that link, but so far I haven't ;-)

Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#96
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would also then have a $1500 asset that you could sell at a later date. When you're an employee you don't have that option. If you aren't able to max out your retirement account it means your QBI deduction is larger. As with most things business/tax related, there's a lot of grey area and nuance here.

> You would also then have a $1500 asset that you could sell at a later date. When you're an employee you don't have that option. Maybe if you turned around and resold the system immediately. But I'm not gonna pay 1500 bucks for your 4 year old 133t machine that you spilled coffee and sneezed on.

Of course. That’s why depreciation and MACRS exists. The point is it’s not a $1500 sunk cost. You get a multi year deduction and an asset in return. How you handle that asset is up to you.

Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#97
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a high rate in SF? Can you bill a full month of it (160 hours) or are larger jobs at a different rate?

Frankly, I don't know if it's a good rate. I shoot for 80% utilization of my time. If I get busier than that, I raise my rate. So that's the simple algorithm that got me to $300/hr now. I don't think I'd want higher utilization than 80% anyway. You need time to do bizdev etc. I used to kill myself with 60 hour weeks a long time ago though. That wasn't smart. I've never had to lower my rate. There were lean periods wh…

Given the high salaries in sf for software development, your rate sounds reasonable.

Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#98
post #2

Like anything else you can find all ranges offered and all ranges accepted. I thought the exact opposite was the norm, with higher rates in US companies than UK/europe. Senior level rates in US range from 100-300/hr. I know it's a big range, but it comes down to speed, creativity, references, portfolio, fit for the project, availability. As far as the half the money as a 9-5, it's actually the other way around-- as a…

Here is a calculator I built a while ago when I was freelancing. It won't be perfect but will give you a close idea of what an equivalent day rate should be for freelancer compared to a full time salary.

https://codegeek1001.github.io/salary2consultantcalc/

Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#99
> That would mean a freelancer makes less than half the money as compared to a 9-5

I think as a general rule, if you're freelancing full-time and making the same as you would in a salaried job or even a little more, you're not charging nearly enough.

When you freelance, you don't get paid sick days or paid holidays, and there's considerable risk you might not have any billed hours of work for weeks at a time. This at a minimum is why you need to be charging more per hour than you'd make per hour at a salaried job.

Re: Ask HN: Freelancer Rates in the US

#100
Freelance rates vary a LOT depending of your location.

A rate of 20-30$/h is pretty standard for developers "outside" the US.

For developers "in" the US, I think you shouldn't accept less than 50$/h. Regarding how much you could ask, I think that depends (besides your experience) of the city in which the client is.

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