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Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

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Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#61

Post by ryanschneider »

smallnamespace wrote: post #39
bnegreve wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many organisms have a stable superstructure within which controlled change is accommodated--the seasonal timing of reproduction, the outer protein coat of a virus, the plasticity of the brain. Ok for the seasonal change, but I don't think all change is controlled the way you say. Individuals grow and adapt to their changing environment, and for this process to be optimal, entropy is necessary. This contradict the i…

> optimal individual is fully deterministic The way out of your contradiction is to realize that full determinism is likely to lead to the death of the organism, which would not maximally propagate information. One view is that organisms allow change because the environment forces it upon them; another view is that the necessity for particular types of change has shaped organisms over time, until it becomes part of t…

> The way out of your contradiction is to realize that full determinism is likely to lead to the death of the organism, which would not _maximally_ propagate information.

If I understand your argument, one way to think of it is that if my genes allow a “little bit” of entropy now they have a better chance of lasting multiple generations, thus increasing _maximal_ information preservation over time. That is to say preserving 99% of my genes for 10,000 generations is “better” than preserving 100% of my genes for 100 generations.

The interesting ramification there then is that in this perspective the individual is the gene sequence (“my“ DNA) not the current expression of those genes (“me”).

Still too early in the morning for the full ramifications of this all to sink in with me, but definitely fascinating.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#62

Post by throw1234651234 »

czbond wrote: post #44
motohagiography wrote: post #43

So by extension, death is just decoherence? I've said before that the most plausible explanation to me for what happens after death is the end of "I," since we as "I's," necessarily cannot comprehend a state of "not-I." We can know it exists, we can experience its effects from others, and we can severely impair it with psychedelic poisons, but to decohere into a state of "!i" is, to borrow from GEB, the song that bre…

Can you expand on the concept of what "not-I" is? I am very interested, and maybe it is my coffee just kicking in - but my brain can't comprehend solid examples of it.

Buddhists view everything as a sum of parts - a car is not a car, it's a collection of wheels, engine parts, transmission parts, etc. In Buddhism, you are not "you" - you are just some organs working together. Likewise, when you sit quietly during mindfulness meditation you learn to identify sensations of pain and discomfort as things that occur outside of you, you just perceive them. In other words, there is no you, there is a sum of parts that you have traditionally perceived as you. If you decouple yourself from these sensations, you can no longer be hurt by them.

Keep in mind that Buddhism is deeply rooted in a time when the only way to avoid suffering was to ignore all desire, because it wasn't going to be fulfilled anyway. So, if you want a primer course on Buddhism, read the "4 Noble Ways" and "The Eightfold Path" (about a 30 second read for both) - while these sounds esoteric, they basically summarize Buddhism in a very clear, concise, and logical way; which is that Buddhism is nothing by asceticism and a way to let go of wordly desires and ignore the outside world, to ease suffering.

Everything else is fluff by pseudo-intellectuals who will flood below this post.

As a side note "Altered Traits" was a useless, garbage, author-self-promotion book with no actual info, thanks for nothing HN.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#63

Post by throw1234651234 »

jeffdavis wrote: post #58
beaconstudios wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of not being a self aware conscious entity.

Are you claiming that individuality and consciousness are the same?

Define "individuality" and "consciousness" for the sake of trying to contrast them. Both seem like very vague open-ended words. Oh wait, they are, because we still can't define consciousness, so there can be no meaningful answer to your question.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#64

Post by throw1234651234 »

GavinMcG wrote: post #46
motohagiography wrote: post #43

So by extension, death is just decoherence? I've said before that the most plausible explanation to me for what happens after death is the end of "I," since we as "I's," necessarily cannot comprehend a state of "not-I." We can know it exists, we can experience its effects from others, and we can severely impair it with psychedelic poisons, but to decohere into a state of "!i" is, to borrow from GEB, the song that bre…

Buddhists would likely disagree with that, since in Buddhism (though this is a significant oversimplification) enlightenment comes with the unrooting of all attachments and the dissolution of "self".

What's over-simplified about that statement? That's a perfect summary of Buddhism - it encompasses the point completely without going into techniques.

The only part that's missing is "...with the goal of avoiding suffering".

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#65

Post by dewaka »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #62
czbond wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on the concept of what "not-I" is? I am very interested, and maybe it is my coffee just kicking in - but my brain can't comprehend solid examples of it.

Buddhists view everything as a sum of parts - a car is not a car, it's a collection of wheels, engine parts, transmission parts, etc. In Buddhism, you are not "you" - you are just some organs working together. Likewise, when you sit quietly during mindfulness meditation you learn to identify sensations of pain and discomfort as things that occur outside of you, you just perceive them. In other words, there is no you,…

I can also recommend "What the Buddha Taught" by Walpola Rahula. It is from a Theravada perspective, but I think it is a good start to get to know the core of Buddhism based on the Pali cannon.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#66

Post by throw1234651234 »

dewaka wrote: post #65
throw1234651234 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhists view everything as a sum of parts - a car is not a car, it's a collection of wheels, engine parts, transmission parts, etc. In Buddhism, you are not "you" - you are just some organs working together. Likewise, when you sit quietly during mindfulness meditation you learn to identify sensations of pain and discomfort as things that occur outside of you, you just perceive them. In other words, there is no you,…

I can also recommend "What the Buddha Taught" by Walpola Rahula. It is from a Theravada perspective, but I think it is a good start to get to know the core of Buddhism based on the Pali cannon.

Can you break that down? I am eager to learn about Buddhism, because to me, it has some "practical" aspects, but so far every book I have read has been a 100 pages of fluff and a salient point or two.

What makes this book good?

Just to be clear, I am genuinely interested, but I want to know more as to why you are recommending it.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#67

Post by beaconstudios »

jeffdavis wrote: post #58
beaconstudios wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of not being a self aware conscious entity.

Are you claiming that individuality and consciousness are the same?

no - the question was around a self-aware entity (an "I") becoming aware of its future non-existence. A conscious being without self-awareness would not be capable of considering its self no longer existing.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#68

Post by dewaka »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #66
dewaka wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can also recommend "What the Buddha Taught" by Walpola Rahula. It is from a Theravada perspective, but I think it is a good start to get to know the core of Buddhism based on the Pali cannon.

Can you break that down? I am eager to learn about Buddhism, because to me, it has some "practical" aspects, but so far every book I have read has been a 100 pages of fluff and a salient point or two. What makes this book good? Just to be clear, I am genuinely interested, but I want to know more as to why you are recommending it.

Since this is an introductory text, it covers things you probably already know about - four noble truths, eight fold path etc.

However, there are some practical advice which I found to be nicely explained,

- Book has a chapter on meditation and I think it does get to the point without fluff, for example. It talks about Samatha (such as focus on breath) and Vipassana meditation.

- Talks about some important sutras such as Kalama sutra which is all about how to live your life as a Buddhist as a layman (as opposed to a monk).

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#69

Post by clairity »

Retric wrote: post #22
clairity wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

viruses have no agency so they don't attempt to reduce entropy across time. viruses are a reduction of entropy across time, just by being an organized structure (of rna and protein strands folded together) requiring energy to create and maintain. information is encoded in that structure--both in the sequence and in the shape--and that's transmitted through time.

Viruses increase entropy like all life. Their reproductive process destroys a much larger and more complex cell. Plants convert light into chemical energy at low efficiency, the rest goes to waste heat. Animals do the same thing with chemical energy.

yes, as @selestify also noted, that seems contradictory on the surface but actually isn't. the virus itself is a reduction of entropy while it's net existential entropy contribution is positive.

where you draw the system boundary matters for defining entropy changes, but long-term we're all bound to increase entropy, otherwise life (and our semi-living cousins) would be violating the laws of thermodynamics writ large.

Re: Life Is Made of Unfair Coin Flips

#70

Post by clairity »

ppod wrote: post #45
clairity wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

viruses have no agency so they don't attempt to reduce entropy across time. viruses are a reduction of entropy across time, just by being an organized structure (of rna and protein strands folded together) requiring energy to create and maintain. information is encoded in that structure--both in the sequence and in the shape--and that's transmitted through time.

What is the least complex entity that you ascribe agency to?

i haven't thought about it enough to even speculate, but one criteria would be the ability to make decisions, however simple.

viruses are entirely passive in their action. they're exquisitely complex structures (for what they are) existing entirely by chance that happen to have the property of self-replicating in the presence of the right cellular machinery. they don't decide to do anything, they just are, and therefore don't have agency.

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