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Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

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Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#81

Post by jka »

avra wrote: post #36

I'm afraid someone has to tell the author that what is already possible is worse than the concerns raised here. This technology is actually an effort to not use the available methods that would ignore privacy.

That's a useful perspective to be aware of, and if this were a pure susbtitution of one mechanism for another then that could be a clearer win.

I think it's also true that deploying yet another potentially privacy-invading technology makes it more difficult for privacy advocates and lawmakers to deal with and reduce existing overreaches.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#83

Post by jmull »

GordonS wrote: post #69
jmull wrote: post #52

This guy is wrong about the Apple/Google contact tracing program. As created, it’s opt-in only and does not report matches to a central authority. This guy says, yeah, but the gubment could abuse the tracing mechanism for things besides an epidemic, force your phone to report matches centrally, and force the removal of the opt-in part of it. ...except, if a government can pull those off, they don’t need this new cont…

> This guy says, yeah, but the gubment could abuse the tracing mechanism for things besides an epidemic.. > ...except, if a government can pull those off, they don’t need this new contact tracing platform. These assume the government already has deep, control of the details of the operating system. It doesn't have to be about the security services having root on your phone - they can use legislation, forcing Apple/Go…

You’re missing the main point: if the government can do this, it will, independent of this contact tracing platform.

Also, there is no location data in this platform, and Google and Apple don’t have the data that does exist.

> naive

I think you need to understand what’s going on here before you start throwing around words like that.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#84

Post by baryphonic »

jmull wrote: post #52

This guy is wrong about the Apple/Google contact tracing program. As created, it’s opt-in only and does not report matches to a central authority. This guy says, yeah, but the gubment could abuse the tracing mechanism for things besides an epidemic, force your phone to report matches centrally, and force the removal of the opt-in part of it. ...except, if a government can pull those off, they don’t need this new cont…

Exactly right. And as civil libertarian as I am, I'd rather have Google and Apple tracking my location for this prosocial cause than serving targeted ads. And it's not like Apple and Google aren't already tracking iOS and Android users anyway (albeit user-tweakable).

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#85

Post by craigsmansion »

jmull wrote: post #52

This guy is wrong about the Apple/Google contact tracing program. As created, it’s opt-in only and does not report matches to a central authority. This guy says, yeah, but the gubment could abuse the tracing mechanism for things besides an epidemic, force your phone to report matches centrally, and force the removal of the opt-in part of it. ...except, if a government can pull those off, they don’t need this new cont…

> There are always people who see a tragic pandemic and just see a chance to use the concern and attention to highlight their own cause

You say that like it's not a PR exercise for large corporations.

> the ones who fight against the efforts to mitigate the suffering

There's more than a few billions floating around off-shore that could have helped establish universal healthcare and social safety programs, but just being a good corporate citizen doesn't get headlines, so let's focus on panic situations and instead sell our new slogan:

"Nefarious, for good!"

("good" defined as "not as evil as a global health crisis"; disclaimers may apply)

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#86

Post by joking »

morsch wrote: post #47
halixand wrote: post #14

Moxie Marlinspike has an interesting analysis on this: https://twitter.com/moxie/status/1248707315626201088

Published keys are 16 bytes, one for each day. If moderate numbers of smartphone users are infected in any given week, that's 100s of MBs for all phones to DL. That seems untenable. It's a lot, but untenable? If 300 million report as infected, that's 4.8 GB, coincidently the size of a DVD. So 2 hours of Netflix, 1 hour at 4k. Very easy to cache this data close to the edge, too.

300 million each day would be the whole world population on less than a month. At current numbers ( 13000 per day ) that’s a few megabytes without compression.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#87

Post by jmull »

donohoe wrote: post #73
jmull wrote: post #52

This guy is wrong about the Apple/Google contact tracing program. As created, it’s opt-in only and does not report matches to a central authority. This guy says, yeah, but the gubment could abuse the tracing mechanism for things besides an epidemic, force your phone to report matches centrally, and force the removal of the opt-in part of it. ...except, if a government can pull those off, they don’t need this new cont…

First, you make some good points but you could have made them without rudely characterizing the author ("...but the gubment could.." etc.) Second, the author is not wrong - when you build in tracking at such a deep-level it is open to abuse. Read the authors bio, he is not a naive techie. This is an area he has strong background in and deep technical knowledge. Maybe this is the path forward, but Apple and Google app…

It’s exactly because of the Author’s bio that I come down hard on him.

He knows what he’s saying is wrong, and he knows that if the FUD he’s spreading catches on, a lot of suffering will happen that otherwise would not have.

> when you build in tracking at such a deep-level it is open to abuse.

True, which is why he should do an analysis of this system rather than this. He could be using his platform as an authority and presumed skills as a teacher to explain the system rather than spread misinformation.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#88

Post by harry8 »

simonh wrote: post #75
harry8 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry if a one word dismissal is too confronting for those who know absolutely nothing about what has been going on in dragnet surveillance in silicon valley. But see all these words I'm writing? They don't change the fact that it is impossible to be cynical enough about such fatuous claims. You'd have to be stunningly ignorant to give them more than a second of credulous thought. Apple are not the good guys or a…

If Google or Apple wanted to track the movements and activities of everyone using an Android phone or iPhone, they would just do it. They wouldn’t need to publish an API and wouldn’t need to tell you about it. They could just do it and we might never know. So this has nothing whatever to do with trust of Google or Apple tracking us, it’s about trusting what data they share and expose via this API for virus contact tr…

It is utterly insane to trust Google or Apple for any reason whatsoever under any circumstance. They lie as often as they can get away with. You understand what they do, with with it or not despite any promises they make.

Fool me yet again and i feel bad so I'll trust you absolutely now? Come on!

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#89

Post by tareqak »

If governments and cellular service providers already have the capability to track cell phones users and generate lists of people in close proximity, then why does Apple and Google need to create this contact tracing platform? Why are governments and cellular service providers not using this existing capability if they possess it?

I am not trying to imply that they do not have this capability. It just seems odd.

I also have a question: can this feature disabled simply via disabling Bluetooth?

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#90

Post by [deleted] »

twhitmore wrote: post #79
epistasis wrote: post #18

> However any decentralised scheme can be turned into a centralised scheme by forcing the phone to report to the authorities that it was at some point in time close to the phone of an infected person. If the system was different, it would be bad? This is a slippery-slope argument that I do not find compelling. The amount of surveillance that this is supposedly guarding against--govt tracking of an individual's locati…

Generally I agree that location tracking is already relatively widely done, and the Apple/ Google protocol makes reasonable efforts to preserve privacy. I do share some caution, however -- tracing 'personal contacts' by BTLE is likely much more personally specific, and hence significantly more intrusive, than just location. If such mechanisms became more generally available they would likely become used as part of th…

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