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Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

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Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#31

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni.

People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!

Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating in general student life all are things that cost a lot of money. You will need at least 1k-1.5k EUR net per month, which means earning 2k or more gross. That's not exactly easy to do on the side, since most degree programmes are full-time only; you are expected to put your 40 hours a week towards the degree and not some other job to finance yourself.

When polled, 87% of students answered that they were dependent on financial support from their parents and 12% received state-sponsored loans [1].

So let's not kid ourselves. The question of whether you will go to Uni or not, in Germany, also depends to a very large degree on who and how wealthy your parents are.

Statistically speaking, your chance to go to Uni is 27% if your parents are blue collar workers. It is 79% if your parents also hold academic degrees. If your parents have no professional training at all, the probability is 12%. [2]

So maybe we should focus on our own issues first ;)

[1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bildung/studienfinanzierung-so-k...

[2] https://www.forschung-und-lehre.de/lehre/nichtakademiker-kna...

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: It doesn't even matter what statistics are correct, your assumption that the original commenter was celebrating antiwhite sentiment is absurd by itself. Original: You're using statistics for the whole USA. There are half a million people here, you're just regressing to the mean, some states have a larger percent nonwhite people. Hawaii has 25 percent whites, so my estimate was correct. Edit: also, your stats ar…

I'm confused, why are you going on about Hawaii? From looking at the GP's account info, they seem to teach at a school in Virginia, which is 94.2% white.

Clearly you're not arguing in good faith, since you also didn't know at that time where the commenter was from, so have a good night and continue to fear that your race is being threatened or something like that.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#33

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

There's a spectrum there. here in Denmark University is actually free, and you even get money for your.other expenses (I was able to. live on just that money quite comfortably when I was studying). For me the German system is alien too.

I think it's due to the deeply individualist mentality you see in America.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it a good thing there is more non-white students? Why does it matter what ethnicity they are if they have the right grades to go there? I don't give a shit about someone's sex or race when working with someone, nor do I go around a room counting how many white co-workers I have. I am baffled by it.

Tbh, diversity only seems to be a thing in America (and slowly creeping into the UK). I think it's partly more pronounced there because your race is significantly correlated to your income levels, which determine your ability to go to college. Meanwhile, most of Europe is homogenous largely, and thus insusceptible to any effects from diversity issues. Even in the UK, the most diverse European country, except for some…

In the UK there is a class divide (linked mostly to wealth but not entirely). Everyone that is naturalised or was born here is considered British no matter what their race is (the same applies to the French IIRC). Yes unfortunately people are bringing race into our politics which is a shame tbh because it is considered rude to mention someone's race in anything other than maybe describing their physical appearance (for the purposes of identification).

If a student wants to go to University they are means tested which determines the amount of grants / loans they are entitled to. Race isn't a consideration only wealth (based on household income).

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#35

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

I don't agree with this sentiment and I believe it's based on a big lie, but here's what some of the "average" Americans might think: "I'm an American, my ancestors for generations have pioneered the frontier and could only rely on themselves. I don't like the idea of helping some lazy bum get their art degree on my dime, so I'm against free college. I'm a working man, and my son will be too, or he'll get a degree as…

It's not a big lie, it's more of an American frame of mind.

What you described is called the "Just World" fallacy - you get what you deserve. Or a more modern term, "I got mine."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

The US founders, the Pilgrims, were (religious) puritans, and that mindset carries on until today.

> you milk your youth

Politicians and the oligarchy are very concerned about personal moral hazard, not so much about corporate moral hazard. So youth get non-dischargeable student debt, and companies get bailouts. (Since most bills are written by lobbyists, not elected officials, it would be very interesting to see who wrote that education bill.)

How deep is the fear of personal moral hazard? There were bread riots and Washington, DC was occupied by rioters in the Great Depression after Washington refused to provide aid in case, "everybody would just stop farming."

As Warren Buffett said, "[The war between the poor and rich in America is over. You lost.]" (Note that he is one of the few billionaires who has gone on record about this, because he knows there's a problem with 15% capital gains tax rate for investors like him, when employees like his secretary pay around 40%.)

> you come out of your education and have 100k in debt.

Oh, and it's 200k in school debt, and no health care. And buy a car if you want to get around. Rock on!

More seriously, the US lacks a coherent policy on anything (healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc.) So it's an Oliver Twist-style existence for the bottom 99%.

You can probably use this search filter to find intelligent discussion about US politics, "no policy" plus "US" and your favorite topic. This isn't a Trump problem, it's a "too many lawyers in Washington" problem.

If you want to read astonishing truthfulness by politicians today, read anything by top Malaysian leader, Dr. Mahathir, or the investor Tan Teng Boo:

https://www.thesundaily.my/business/foreigners-exremely-caut...

How's that for transparency and honesty? Every conversation with those two is a roadmap for progress for their country. So it is possible.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#36
post #27

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

My guess: It is politically wanted to have graduates that will take any job because they are deep into debt with no chance of getting rid of it through bankruptcy. This pressure keeps wages down and "motivation" up.

From a purely free market perspective, it makes sense. getting educated takes resources, that education then has to earn you more resources in the long run, meaning you can pay off the loan.

That ignores all the sociatal benefits from having a more well educated poopulous, and I like free education, but you can't deny there's some internal logic there.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#37

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

Because we don’t want to pay 50% in taxes.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#38

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

I don't agree with this sentiment and I believe it's based on a big lie, but here's what some of the "average" Americans might think: "I'm an American, my ancestors for generations have pioneered the frontier and could only rely on themselves. I don't like the idea of helping some lazy bum get their art degree on my dime, so I'm against free college. I'm a working man, and my son will be too, or he'll get a degree as…

This is basically agricultural era thinking peppered with laissez-faire ideology.

In 1700-hundreads you could drop average household with some seeds and few tools into the forest and they would go on. If there was village around with 50-100 people their productivity would probably double. Connected to organized state and trade it might increase even more.

Today >95% of the value from work comes from the infrastructure and society around people. Marginal improvements to aggregate education levels improve aggregate incomes and productivity. If your country has higher educated lazy bums than some other country, it creates value and wealth and you are freed to do marginally more demanding and valuable work for yourself. Getting even lazy bums go trough college can easily flip into net positive due to slightly better lifetime earning and health.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#39

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni. People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all! Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating…

It's a very complex issue with many elements.

E.g. the EU has been critising Germany's early 'tracking' on one or the other path for decades, some changes have taken place with a new school type introduced a few years ago, but getting schools/cities/.. to switch to this has been an uphill battle. While German students are expected to finance themselves, those from low income families get financial support (a loan with very favourable terms that only has to be paid back if the student reaches a certain income threshold after their studies). The problem that low socio-economic background youth don't study is not primarily a financial issue; much more a matter of aspirations and the tracking you mention. There are ways to switch tracks but it's not the most obvious choice for students.

But it's also a matter of what is prioritised: in Germany (and Austria, Denmark, ...) vocational education is much more important and also much more respectable than in most other countries. What is on each track also differs, e.g. in Germany you could study IT/software development etc or you could do most of these also on a vocational track and most often right away have a job afterwards. Nursing is in Germany a vocational profession, in the UK you'd pursue a bachelor's at a university for it. In Spain many youth go to university because they don't have any other real options to choose from; and graduates leave university there often with zero practical skills (improving in past years but not easy). Lithuania has a higher education rate that is above 80% and they are actively trying to reduce it as you just can't use that many higher education graduated and need the vocational professionals as well.

So, complex issue. Not everyone needs to have a higher education degree (and much less does everyone want one). Too few or too many tertiary graduates is both not ideal. But do students need to end up with debt around 100k (US) or even just 30k (UK) if they choose tertiary studies? I don't think so.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#40

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni. People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all! Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating…

"People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!"

I lived and worked in Germany and eventually moved back to Canada. When I would hear people talk about how university here should be free like Germany I would often think, well if university was like in Germany, you might not be going, but not because of money.

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