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Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

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Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#31

Post by tsechin »

wuunderbar wrote: post #19
ravenstine wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I want to wake up in the morning to find my laptop not working? This issue is exactly why I only occasionally install updates, and if I do I wait a while for the canaries to leave the coal mine. I've been a user of macOS, distros of Linux, and Windows for years, and in every one of them there was the inevitable update that made the OS unusable. It happens rarely but, when it does, it's a miserable experienc…

Interested in hearing about a Linux update that made the system unusable.

I recently had to work around https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1806329 by installing and selecting a specific (older) kernel. On affected versions, my wifi wouldn't come up.

Granted it wasn't strictly "bricked", but I think no-wifi meets some of the bars for unusable.

So yes, bad updates do happen.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#32

Post by bangonkeyboard »

I thought this would be about the 10.15.4 update, which had known problems, but instead it's the supplemental hotfix that was supposed to address them:

"This supplemental update for macOS 10.15.4 Catalina, released Wednesday (April 8), was meant to resolve issues created by the 10.15.4 update in late March."

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#33

Post by kbumsik »

oneplane wrote: post #2

Odd, this seems to be happening across the industry and is now either reported better or just more prevalent. Besides bricks (well, is it a brick if you can recover?) we have seen post-update BSOD's, data loss, browsers going bad, settings getting reset on various operating systems of the big vendors out there. I know that it isn't like software 'used to be perfect' but this type of defect feels bigger than it used t…

I guess two reasons:

1. The OS update policies became more "agile". Both Windows and macOS starts to update the OS more often than ever. macOS moved to an annual update from biannual, Windows 10 switched to a subscription-like model.

2. They laid off the testing team and stopped testing on actual PCs in favor of VMs. [1] It makes sense considering the broken updates are often more low-level bugs that cannot be caught by VMs.

[1]: https://www.techradar.com/news/windows-10-problems-are-ruini...

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#34

Post by saghm »

kbumsik wrote: post #22
bromuro wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is not my native language and this is the first time I hear about this “bricked” expression. What does it mean?

FYI, Korean have literally the same expression used in the web "벽돌이 되다", not sure if it comes from the english web though. Anyway, the "bricked" expression is more commonly used in smartphones and PlayStation Portable (PSP) than laptops. Then it makes more sense when considering the size of the devices.

> Anyway, the "bricked" expression is more commonly used in smartphones and PlayStation Portable (PSP) than laptops. Then it makes more sense when considering the size of the devices.

I think it's also at least in part more commonly applied to those types of devices because they're generally more locked down than a laptop, leading users to risk bricking by trying jailbreaking them. Installing a custom OS on most laptops just isn't nearly as risky in terms of bricking potential.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#35

Post by dagenix »

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #4

It's not "bricked" if you can fix it in Recovery Mode. Still bad that it's happening, but the term "bricked" is thrown around so flippantly these days. If a piece of tech is bricked, it's not recoverable at all.

On the one hand, I tend to agree with you. But on the other hand, I think there is a significant nuance - for many users going into recovery mode is beyond what they are comfortable doing with their laptop and so for all intents and purposes a laptop that can only be recovered that way is unrecoverable.

More generally, any issue with a computer can be fixed by a sufficiently skilled and determined user - maybe with some data loss. Even a broken firmware might be fixed by writing a new one, cracking the authentication mechanism, and building a custom rig to flash it to the chip.

It's all a matter of degrees and how much users can be expected to do which makes defining exactly what "bricked" means very difficult.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#36

Post by apostacy »

bluedino wrote: post #6

Are people not using auto-update?

The first thing I always do is disable auto-updates. Auto updating does not deserve the level of trust we put it in it. Just a few months ago, Google's creepy invisible updater rendered people's Apples unbootable if they didn't have SIP enabled, which many people including myself have good reason not to[1]. Thankfully, I had already blocked Keystone Agent with an immutable folder.

This auto-updating treadmill we've been sold on is really beneficial for developers, but it causes some major problems for end-users.

I have honestly lost track of the number of times I have had an update cripple a device. My iPad got ruined, my PS3 lost Linux, iTunes removed p2p music sharing in a deceptive update, Cisco gutted residential routers and forced people onto their crummy new platform[2]... I could go on and on. And this isn't even counting Android. I had a friend lose Miracast support in an Android update, minutes before he had to give a presentation.

And those are all examples of updates functioning as intended, even though they are against the interests of the users. I can add more citations if anyone is curious.

So no, if you use your device for anything important, then don't update it until you've made a backup, and had a chance to read up on any potential problems. It really says something that in this day and age, I've had to become much more vigilant about backing up my data than ever before.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21064663

[2]: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/06/29/1425210/cisco-pushi...

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#37

Post by userbinator »

oneplane wrote: post #2

Odd, this seems to be happening across the industry and is now either reported better or just more prevalent. Besides bricks (well, is it a brick if you can recover?) we have seen post-update BSOD's, data loss, browsers going bad, settings getting reset on various operating systems of the big vendors out there. I know that it isn't like software 'used to be perfect' but this type of defect feels bigger than it used t…

I think this is the saddest part:

was meant to resolve issues created by the 10.15.4 update in late March

The "fix some bugs, add some new ones" trend has certainly gotten more common within the past few years. I still remember when the official advice was not to install updates unless you were experiencing the issues it was to fix, but that wasn't really applicable to security fixes, and now official advice seems to be "always install" regardless of security or indeed usefulness.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#38

Post by kbumsik »

saghm wrote: post #34
kbumsik wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, Korean have literally the same expression used in the web "벽돌이 되다", not sure if it comes from the english web though. Anyway, the "bricked" expression is more commonly used in smartphones and PlayStation Portable (PSP) than laptops. Then it makes more sense when considering the size of the devices.

> Anyway, the "bricked" expression is more commonly used in smartphones and PlayStation Portable (PSP) than laptops. Then it makes more sense when considering the size of the devices. I think it's also at least in part more commonly applied to those types of devices because they're generally more locked down than a laptop, leading users to risk bricking by trying jailbreaking them. Installing a custom OS on most lapt…

Right, I mentioned PSP because jailbreaking was specifically widespread for PSP.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#40

Post by cesarb »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #25

I think companies are pushing updates way too aggressively to those who have auto update on. Is there some reason why phased release isn't more common among OS/firmware updates? Auto update does not have to mean "update my device the day new versions are out". Edit: Is this related to public disclosure of security bugs? If so, the community should change their standard so that public disclosure doesn't happen until a…

> If so, the community should change their standard so that public disclosure doesn't happen until a week after the update is available.

The update being available is public disclosure! For an experienced reverse engineer, comparing the files before and after the update is usually enough to pinpoint the security issue.

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