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Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

nora.codes

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Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#71

Post by shawnz »

dahfizz wrote: post #53
dvt wrote: post #5

> ... it insulates the student from the javac command line program, and the command line environment itself Such a misguided article. The Java language has (quite literally) nothing to do with `javac`. In fact, there's a lot of other compilers out there. Taking a Java class should not focus on the intricacies and weirdness of Java compiler command line interfaces. It seems pretty amateurish to argue in favor of it. C…

I strongly disagree. A lot of my peers in college were very bright and could write great code, but they were absolutely useless as developers because they didn't know any tooling. They couldn't compile, run, test, or source control their code if the professor didn't set it up for them. Yes, tools change, but the knowledge from one tool is almost always transferable. Once you're comfortable on the CLI and understand t…

I agree that many developers are not very adept with tooling, but is that because they don't use the CLI? Or is it just that they aren't interested in those parts of software engineering? Eclipse is a tool too, and not a simple one either.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#72

Post by cle »

dahfizz wrote: post #53
dvt wrote: post #5

> ... it insulates the student from the javac command line program, and the command line environment itself Such a misguided article. The Java language has (quite literally) nothing to do with `javac`. In fact, there's a lot of other compilers out there. Taking a Java class should not focus on the intricacies and weirdness of Java compiler command line interfaces. It seems pretty amateurish to argue in favor of it. C…

I strongly disagree. A lot of my peers in college were very bright and could write great code, but they were absolutely useless as developers because they didn't know any tooling. They couldn't compile, run, test, or source control their code if the professor didn't set it up for them. Yes, tools change, but the knowledge from one tool is almost always transferable. Once you're comfortable on the CLI and understand t…

Agreed. The least effective developers I’ve had the displeasure of working with never understand how their code executes end-to-end. And the best ones have a deep knowledge of it.

This is no fluke! If you don’t know how a classloader works with the Java classpath, how to set various JVM flags for operating the JVM, etc., then I’d argue that you’re an amateur, and I wouldn’t trust you to write correct code in a production setting. It’s critical knowledge to know how your code runs, and if you don’t know that, then stay away from production systems. If the goal of these courses is to teach students enough about Java to use it in a professional setting, then knowing how classfiles are produced, bundled, distributed, loaded, and executed by a JVM is critical knowledge.

More succinctly, if you don’t know how your code makes it to a production server and gets executed, you’re not ready to work on it.

(And if the goal isn't to teach students how to use Java in a professional setting, then why are they learning it at all? Use a teaching language so students can focus on the concepts instead of Java's idiosyncracies.)

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#73

Post by 1test456 »

shawnz wrote: post #71
dahfizz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. A lot of my peers in college were very bright and could write great code, but they were absolutely useless as developers because they didn't know any tooling. They couldn't compile, run, test, or source control their code if the professor didn't set it up for them. Yes, tools change, but the knowledge from one tool is almost always transferable. Once you're comfortable on the CLI and understand t…

I agree that many developers are not very adept with tooling, but is that because they don't use the CLI? Or is it just that they aren't interested in those parts of software engineering? Eclipse is a tool too, and not a simple one either.

The author is specifically talking about students. The emphasis at this stage plays a key role in whether they'll have that interest or not. Knowing is a prerequisite to developing interest.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#74

Post by bori5 »

pkamb wrote: post #46

"public static void main string bracket bracket args" "public static void main string bracket bracket args" "public static void main string bracket bracket args" kind of sad that my first exposure to programming of any kind at University was just repeating that mantra.

You missed two parentheses

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#75

Post by siphor »

cle wrote: post #72
dahfizz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. A lot of my peers in college were very bright and could write great code, but they were absolutely useless as developers because they didn't know any tooling. They couldn't compile, run, test, or source control their code if the professor didn't set it up for them. Yes, tools change, but the knowledge from one tool is almost always transferable. Once you're comfortable on the CLI and understand t…

Agreed. The least effective developers I’ve had the displeasure of working with never understand how their code executes end-to-end. And the best ones have a deep knowledge of it. This is no fluke! If you don’t know how a classloader works with the Java classpath, how to set various JVM flags for operating the JVM, etc., then I’d argue that you’re an amateur, and I wouldn’t trust you to write correct code in a produc…

eh, I understand the sentiment - but it's a little overkill. Junior programmers can be code reviewed and taught these things over time, and also be wildly productive in a production setting.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#77

Post by bcruddy »

I feel like people upvoted this because it said don't use eclipse but didn't read the article. Now I'm questioning my sanity - given a choice, do professional developers choose to use eclipse?

The question is somewhat loaded given the previous statement based on my own biases but I've never written java professionally so excuse my ignorance.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#80

Post by dionian »

ashton314 wrote: post #39

The author brings this up as a reason for using an IDE: > This is valuable in an introductory course, as it avoids wasting class time and lowers the barrier to entry and then proceeds to argue why other things are more important than that. I don't like Eclipse or other IDEs, having watched my fellow students get stymied by basic issues that I could resolve with one or two relatively simple instructions on the command…

i agree with everyone saying you shouldnt use IDE as a crutch.. but as a seasoned Java dev, it is probably my main exception to the rule as well. I would just recommend intellij over eclipse for beginners, but its better than nothing.
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