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Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

nora.codes

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Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#61

Post by sarakayakomzin »

dahfizz wrote: post #53
dvt wrote: post #5

> ... it insulates the student from the javac command line program, and the command line environment itself Such a misguided article. The Java language has (quite literally) nothing to do with `javac`. In fact, there's a lot of other compilers out there. Taking a Java class should not focus on the intricacies and weirdness of Java compiler command line interfaces. It seems pretty amateurish to argue in favor of it. C…

I strongly disagree. A lot of my peers in college were very bright and could write great code, but they were absolutely useless as developers because they didn't know any tooling. They couldn't compile, run, test, or source control their code if the professor didn't set it up for them. Yes, tools change, but the knowledge from one tool is almost always transferable. Once you're comfortable on the CLI and understand t…

>A lot of my peers in college were very bright and could write great code, but they were absolutely useless as developers

being a useless developer doesn't make it not computer science. not all of computer science is software development.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#62

Post by jcrawfordor »

I can't help but feel like this article is less a condemnation of IDEs in introductory teaching and more a condemnation of java in introductory teaching.

It feels like the use of Eclipse or IntelliJ in intro CS courses is so common in large part because Java has such relatively complex tooling and language conventions. I've never seen someone intro Python with an IDE, because it's extremely easy to use Python without one. The same goes for C, and indeed all of the intro C classes I've seen have gone without an IDE. Java, though... you really could spend an extended part of the course just getting everyone setting up their first file and using the compiler correctly, if it's the first language.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#63

Post by jbverschoor »

Actually.. for the basic basics it's fine to do let them use a text editor and compiler.

But after like 2 files, it's easier to learn the language due to autocomplete and errorchecking.

The whole compilation / dependency stack, well I don't think that's the issue here.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#64

Post by lordalch »

mech422 wrote: post #44
bdcravens wrote: post #15

I tend to agree, but I wonder how many in the "IDE bad" camp would agree that in order to obtain your drivers license, you must pass the drivers test on a manual transmission?

Gotta admit - that appeals to me :-P U.S. drivers licenses are too easy to get as it is... I don't think my sister even had to parallel park on hers.

Since I got my driver's license over a decade ago, I've had to parallel-park less than ten times. I've probably changed a flat tire more often.

I think you would find that the vast majority of drivers in the US don't parallel park even once per year. Furthermore, an increasing fraction of new cars can park automatically.

The chief value of having a road test, in my mind, is to force most teens to learn to drive in a structured program that introduces rules of the road and safe habits. Parallel parking is rare and not dangerous, so we shouldn't waste the limited hours that teens spend with professional driving educators on it.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#65

Post by saagarjha »

dragonwriter wrote: post #40
eternalban wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University programs exist to prepare workers for the industry, as a general goal. A subset of students are either already hardcore or will become hardcore developers , cum computer scientists . How should a university 'optimize' their pedagogical approach so that all students are maximally rewarded by their education? There is no question in my mind that you are correct, in principle. But I wonder if what you propose…

> University programs exist to prepare workers for the industry, as a general goal. I don't think that it's true that the general goal of University of CS programs is to prepare students for the software dev industry.

Due to (apparently) popular demand, my university has been moving in that direction for a while now.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#66

Post by [deleted] »

dahfizz wrote: post #53
dvt wrote: post #5

> ... it insulates the student from the javac command line program, and the command line environment itself Such a misguided article. The Java language has (quite literally) nothing to do with `javac`. In fact, there's a lot of other compilers out there. Taking a Java class should not focus on the intricacies and weirdness of Java compiler command line interfaces. It seems pretty amateurish to argue in favor of it. C…

I strongly disagree. A lot of my peers in college were very bright and could write great code, but they were absolutely useless as developers because they didn't know any tooling. They couldn't compile, run, test, or source control their code if the professor didn't set it up for them. Yes, tools change, but the knowledge from one tool is almost always transferable. Once you're comfortable on the CLI and understand t…

[deleted]

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#67

Post by zmmmmm »

I thought this was going to be the standard Eclipse bashing and then found it was more fundamental than that.

In many ways Eclipse is one of the less problematic IDEs because it does expose a lot of the underlying warts... it's one of the reasons people dislike it (among others, to be clear - memory usage, less fluid ergonmics in many other ways). But one of the reasons I have stuck with it is that, like when you understand Git at a fundamental level it all "makes sense", Eclipse has a better direct relationship to the underlying mechanics than other IDEs I've used.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#68

Post by augustt »

gwbas1c wrote: post #35

> What they can’t do, unless they’ve figured it out on their own, is operate a computer outside of the confines of the IDE they’ve been taught. Understanding what a file is and what a text editor should be prerequisites for entering a computer science department. Someone who doesn't understand these concepts has no business learning to program. At my "not MIT" school, it was expected that most incoming CS students un…

At actual MIT there are no expectations like this.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#69

Post by kqr »

dahfizz wrote: post #53
dvt wrote: post #5

> ... it insulates the student from the javac command line program, and the command line environment itself Such a misguided article. The Java language has (quite literally) nothing to do with `javac`. In fact, there's a lot of other compilers out there. Taking a Java class should not focus on the intricacies and weirdness of Java compiler command line interfaces. It seems pretty amateurish to argue in favor of it. C…

I strongly disagree. A lot of my peers in college were very bright and could write great code, but they were absolutely useless as developers because they didn't know any tooling. They couldn't compile, run, test, or source control their code if the professor didn't set it up for them. Yes, tools change, but the knowledge from one tool is almost always transferable. Once you're comfortable on the CLI and understand t…

In particular, command line compilers have been used virtually the same way since the first command line interfaces, so knowledge of javac is definitely transferable.

IDEs change more frequently.

Re: Don't Make Students Use Eclipse

#70

Post by nunez »

Truth. I work with plenty of engineers that have only written Java with Eclipse or Jetbrains. Many have a lot of trouble getting their app to compile locally when asked to do so upon moving the app into containers. Many also had issues even writing software upon trying to use something like Vi or VSCode.

At some point, the training wheels need to come off.

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