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Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

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Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#111

Post by swiley »

true_religion wrote: post #33
Nasrudith wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally I have found it is the older half (latter middle age) that are less likely to take it seriously ironically and likely to complain about inconveniences or that they are "overreacting". I blame Fox News for it, they are outright the world's largest elder abuse network. Personally I suspect the abysmal leadership and the utterly corrupt fuck ups in preparations who spent more time insider trading than stocki…

Maybe it’s that older people are more used to the concept of death, so show less fear. When I was 30, the sudden acceleration in the number of people I knew dying was incredible. Aunts, uncles, friends, teachers all started to die from complications of old age. At first I was shocked, but soon I became jaded since there’s nothing you can do about other people getting old. Once you get so used to that, it’s seen as an…

I agree people should be wearing masks, but IMO without any training PPE is probably going to make things worse. The last time I went to the grocery store people had their (often gloved) hands all over their faces readjusting masks. For some reason I thought people understood how to use gloves and masks but now I’m pretty sure most don’t and think they magically make you safer.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#112

Post by altcognito »

cameldrv wrote: post #98
kyuudou wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it's a bit disingenuous comparing Italy with California demographically - we're talking about one of the largest population per capita of elderly who are well-known for living with multiple generations on the same property if not the same household AND who have traditional body language mannerisms that involve lots of hand-to-face and lips-to-face contact. Bit less of all that in Cali.

They've done sampled serological tests in at least one town in Italy. If you compare that against excess deaths in March, you get an Infection Fatality Rate of 2%. Perhaps it will be better in the U.S. due to age structure, but perhaps it will be worse due to the high prevalence of obesity and diabetes. Either way, California won't have reached herd immunity until approximately 600,000 people are dead, barring some t…

How can you use excess deaths to influence the IFR when excess deaths is across the entire population but the actual infection only reaches a small percentage?

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#113

Post by altcognito »

lurquer wrote: post #95
malandrew wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this actually happened, why did we not observe other incidents like what happened in the Live Care Center in Kirkland, Washington? 35 people died. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/us/coronavirus-nursing-ho... This has ripped through like wildfire in highly vulnerable communities. Also, would we not have observed a lot of medical staff becoming sick like they are now? I just find it very hard to believe that this…

"as many as 380,000 people die of the infections in LTCFs [long-term care facilities] every year." https://www.cdc.gov/longtermcare/index.html An increase of a several percent would not be noticed.

Typically the staff isn’t at risk for life threatening respiratory viruses. They might catch a cold, but it will look nothing like covid.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#114

Post by sershe »

hurricanetc wrote: post #2

It’s too bad that people can’t follow simple requests. Governments are forced to choose between allowing idiot citizens to destroy society or to implement draconian policies. Medical professionals are being asked to come out of retirement. Nurses are reusing PPE for weeks. Medical students are graduating early to help. The rest of us are being asked to just stay the fuck home for a few weeks. And we just refuse to do…

This is a good example of why strong negative rights and freedoms are so important. We don't want, and I quote you, "idiots" dictating what others can and cannot do based mostly on their rightful indignation.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#115

Post by sershe »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #11

> At the ACLU, we have always recognized that, during a disease outbreak, individual rights must sometimes give way to the greater good. After all, when it comes to disease, we are not just individuals but also one big bio-mass. That is why people can sometimes be deprived of their liberty through quarantine, for example. And this is as it should be, provided — and this is a crucial and sometimes violated condition —…

Based solely on their own emails and mailings, ACLU these days is a pale shadow of its former self. They have successfully convinced me to cancel my membership... instead of being about civil liberties, these days it's just another generic left-leaning group (no judgment on whether generic left leaning groups are good or bad).

This just shows that I was right. They used to sue to protect the civil liberties of nazies for gods sake, and now they can't even take an unequivocal position on this simple (civil rights wise) issue because they have to toe the line. The lockdown, regardless of its merits, has more than enough cheerleaders already. We need someone to also focus on civil liberties, not what might be "necessary".

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#116

Post by __s »

kyuudou wrote: post #108
sharken wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, if anything you should be comparing Italy with New York. The data for Corona virus points to elderly in poor health and people with pre-existing illnesses being at risk. If you don’t agree please explain how Monaco with a very old but rather healthy population has seen one death so far and how come Bangladesh and Pakistan with a population of 300M+ have seen a total of 80 deaths.

Monaco has half the population of Walnut Creek, CA, a lot of them very affluent and not there much of the year. Then there's the issue of 1. how was the testing done (IF AT ALL) 2. how accurate that test was (read up on PCR if you don't agree) 3. how the cause of death was determined. I show you a CDC explanation for how to determine official cause of death from[1]: ""When reporting cause of death...use any informati…

The ordinary flu would be much worse if we didn't vaccinate for it

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#117

Post by cameldrv »

altcognito wrote: post #112
cameldrv wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've done sampled serological tests in at least one town in Italy. If you compare that against excess deaths in March, you get an Infection Fatality Rate of 2%. Perhaps it will be better in the U.S. due to age structure, but perhaps it will be worse due to the high prevalence of obesity and diabetes. Either way, California won't have reached herd immunity until approximately 600,000 people are dead, barring some t…

How can you use excess deaths to influence the IFR when excess deaths is across the entire population but the actual infection only reaches a small percentage?

Deaths in that town were about 10x normal for the month of March. I estimate the IFR by looking at the serological results showing 70% were infected, and observe that 1.4% of the population of the town died in March. 1.4%/70%=2% of those infected died.

Now it could be that there was some other cause for the death rate in the town to be 10x normal, but I think that's pretty unlikely. That said, I'm sure there are excess deaths from other causes, like heart attacks that didn't go to the hospital because they were overloaded, etc, but you could consider those deaths to be indirectly from COVID as well.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#118

Post by tripzilch »

seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #59
simion314 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you assume that yourself are the number guy and know better, so what is the equation that will determine when lockdown is more efficient? what are the inputs in that equation ? Why car deaths would be a factor in why you should implement a lockdown. If you go to a hospital with a illness X would you like a response like "X kills less then cars in our country, until traffic laws are fixed we decided you can suffer…

I think it's fair to do death vs death. Especially if Corona disproportionately affects people who have lived 60+ years already. Car deaths affect people of all ages. The economic collapse and scare has caused people to cancel or delay surgeries, dental work, physical therapy, buy newer and safer cars, home abuse has gone up, I imagine exercise has gone down, I wonder how alcohol use has changed. You can quantify the…

> I think it's fair to do death vs death. Especially if Corona disproportionately affects people who have lived 60+ years already.

If you're going to claim that 60+ year lives are somehow less worth than younger ones, you better damn well be 60+ years old yourself. Otherwise you're just talking about sacrificing lives that aren't your own.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#119

Post by sharken »

kyuudou wrote: post #108
sharken wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, if anything you should be comparing Italy with New York. The data for Corona virus points to elderly in poor health and people with pre-existing illnesses being at risk. If you don’t agree please explain how Monaco with a very old but rather healthy population has seen one death so far and how come Bangladesh and Pakistan with a population of 300M+ have seen a total of 80 deaths.

Monaco has half the population of Walnut Creek, CA, a lot of them very affluent and not there much of the year. Then there's the issue of 1. how was the testing done (IF AT ALL) 2. how accurate that test was (read up on PCR if you don't agree) 3. how the cause of death was determined. I show you a CDC explanation for how to determine official cause of death from[1]: ""When reporting cause of death...use any informati…

I fully agree that test accuracy is a problem and that cause of death when Corona virus is involved varies a lot between countries.

Excess mortality could be one way of getting more information, though I don’t know when those data are available.

Re: Governments Introduce Surveillance Under Veil of Coronavirus Control

#120

Post by sharken »

__s wrote: post #116
kyuudou wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monaco has half the population of Walnut Creek, CA, a lot of them very affluent and not there much of the year. Then there's the issue of 1. how was the testing done (IF AT ALL) 2. how accurate that test was (read up on PCR if you don't agree) 3. how the cause of death was determined. I show you a CDC explanation for how to determine official cause of death from[1]: ""When reporting cause of death...use any informati…

The ordinary flu would be much worse if we didn't vaccinate for it

Agreed, in 2018 Denmark followed the WHO recommendation and produced a flu vaccine for three types of the flu.

Unfortunately a fourth type was the dominant type that year and that was not included in the vaccine.

The vaccine for this year will be for four type of the flu, 2 for type A and 2 for type B.

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