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Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

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Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#31

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #16
est31 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting points, thank you. I previously mostly had the death rate for "ordinary" ICU admissions in mind, which were 50%. Didn't know that once you are you are connected a ventilator, you have a 80% death rate. To compare the effect of ventilators vs none, one needs good studies with randomized groups where one gets ventilators and the other doesn't. But I guess those aren't available and doing them is probably no…

I have a really serious lung condition. I used to use mechanical intervention to treat my condition. I have found other methods and no longer do that, in part because such interventions are hard to keep adequately sterile and are known to increase risk of antibiotic resistant infections because of that element. It's really not good to think of this problem space in terms of finding some group without ventilators at a…

The question is, why is the death rate of ventilated patients so high? I would guess that it simply doesn’t fix the underlying issue.

A hypothesis (just a simulation model, totally unproven): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22794837

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#32

Post by DoreenMichele »

watwut wrote: post #28
DoreenMichele wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of the term "PC" is that we basically try to be as inoffensive as possible in public. Where this encourages people to not use racist, sexist, etc language, it's generally a good thing. To the degree that it encourages people to hem and haw about uncomfortable truths, like "this is killing people," it's often counterproductive. I'm a former military wife. The military is not a culture that tries to po…

Nitpick: Lack of PC is not uncomfortable. Quite often it is about telling things the person finds comfortable and that feel good - the ones that imply speaker is superior or that someone was always right about world.

I feel like there's some sort of disconnect here.

I'm aware that politically incorrect remarks are often about privileged people being unconscionably rude and that such remarks are typically not uncomfortable for the speaker.

I'm trying to make a distinction between being appropriately concerned with respecting the feelings of other people and situations where it's actively problematic in terms of clear communication to try too hard to be delicate about a topic. There are situations where that actively fosters misunderstanding, having nothing at all to do with the fact that privileged people are frequently oblivious to how hurtful their words are for other demographics.

My source delicately frames this problem as "causing harm to some patients." Most people would not frame a dramatically higher death rate as "causing harm to the patient." That framing implies survival.

I think it's appropriate in this case to baldly state that we are talking about people dying, not people suffering moderately more. I've explained why.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#33

Post by chvid »

Germany (like a few other countries) is in the situation "too much lockdown, too few sick".

So it has to remove those lockdowns. This creates a fun political dynamic where the authorities who just spend a month scaring the population in doors now has to explain and justify why it is ok to go out and get a little sick.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#34

Post by DoreenMichele »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #31
DoreenMichele wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a really serious lung condition. I used to use mechanical intervention to treat my condition. I have found other methods and no longer do that, in part because such interventions are hard to keep adequately sterile and are known to increase risk of antibiotic resistant infections because of that element. It's really not good to think of this problem space in terms of finding some group without ventilators at a…

The question is, why is the death rate of ventilated patients so high? I would guess that it simply doesn’t fix the underlying issue. A hypothesis (just a simulation model, totally unproven): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22794837

A former registered nurse once told me that heart problems typically start as lung problems. Heart stress isn't at all unusual with lung distress. The two systems very much work together.

I have serious lung problems and I used to have arhythmia. I don't have arhythmia anymore. I'm generally healthier than I used to be.

I don't know why the death rate on ventilators is so high. I'm not inclined to do a lot of speculating in that regard, but I know they can promote antibiotic resistant infections and one article suggested the high death rate in Italy may have been fueled at least in part by antibiotic resistant secondary infections.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#35

Post by watwut »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #32
watwut wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpick: Lack of PC is not uncomfortable. Quite often it is about telling things the person finds comfortable and that feel good - the ones that imply speaker is superior or that someone was always right about world.

I feel like there's some sort of disconnect here. I'm aware that politically incorrect remarks are often about privileged people being unconscionably rude and that such remarks are typically not uncomfortable for the speaker. I'm trying to make a distinction between being appropriately concerned with respecting the feelings of other people and situations where it's actively problematic in terms of clear communication…

I know what you mean. My offtopic remark was claim that it is more. Not just insensitive remark cause you are too privileged.

Instead, itis remark that actively feels good and thus actively makes you more popular among people whose ego is raised by that remark. Remark done so that a group like you more, because you say things that feel good. (Also bonding, but that another topic). Nationalism would be good analogy - it is targeted primary at in-group, to make in-group stick together, feel good and follow you. Like Petersons "women are chaos men are order" is more about making boys feel superior which is pleasant then about any effect on women. It is not random either - it is populist statement actively making a group of people want to.listen to you and worship you. Because it feels good to be order, even if you know deep down it is not true.

You may be underprivileged or unhappy and use that to make yourself feel better about yourself. You may be priviledged and use non PC remark to attract followers, build coalition with both underprivileged and privileged, make common ennemy of whatever group you make fun of.

Not always, but I think fairly often it is used like this - both offline and online. I have seen this play out enought times in both settings to finally conclue the above.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#36

Post by DoreenMichele »

watwut wrote: post #35
DoreenMichele wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there's some sort of disconnect here. I'm aware that politically incorrect remarks are often about privileged people being unconscionably rude and that such remarks are typically not uncomfortable for the speaker. I'm trying to make a distinction between being appropriately concerned with respecting the feelings of other people and situations where it's actively problematic in terms of clear communication…

I know what you mean. My offtopic remark was claim that it is more. Not just insensitive remark cause you are too privileged. Instead, itis remark that actively feels good and thus actively makes you more popular among people whose ego is raised by that remark. Remark done so that a group like you more, because you say things that feel good. (Also bonding, but that another topic). Nationalism would be good analogy -…

That sounds more like a tangent than a nitpick. Nitpick means "Yes, this is ridiculously minor, but I'm going to argue with you anyway about this tiny insignificant detail about which you are wrong."

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#37

Post by m0zg »

usr1106 wrote: post #29
m0zg wrote: post #25

Would be cool to have this for NY as well. I have this nagging suspicion that the press is only showing the small number of hospitals that are overflowing, and not showing the ones that are under capacity, to stoke panic and drive clicks. Similar to the "mass graves" bullshit they wheeled out the other day. To see why it's bullshit, one has to do some basic arithmetic. Consider that if life expectancy in NY metro are…

Yes, you really need to follow death rates. According to some claims up to 70% of corona infections could not result in observable symptoms. However, if you take just dying people, it would not come as a surprise that they are so weak that the additional infection can produce visible symptoms and their death is attributed to COVID. In some places in Lombardy (Italy) the death rate is clearly higher. You didn't need t…

This is exactly what I want to see at at least county-level resolution for the US, and at a borough level in NY. This is something that's immediately usable. "X people died" is not usable on its own, because it contains no information on how X compares with what's "normal" in a geographic region.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#38

Post by Cass »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #9
pacificmint wrote: post #7

Translation of the German captions: The number of hospitals that report that their ICU capacities as: Blue: Has Free Capacities (639 currently) Yellow: Some Contention (326 currently) Red: Fully Utilized (41 currently) Covid 19 patients in ICUs: 2453 (76% of which are on ventilators) ICU beds reported by hospitals: 19,663 (58% in use currently)

Thank you. The translation I saw described yellow as something like "emerging bottlenecks." There seem to be a lot of them in Bavaria, where I have relatives.

My Bavarian hospital is on there as yellow. I'm currently sitting in the empty urgent care clinic and just had a chat with the nurse from the almost empty emergency room about the fact that both the COVID-19 ward and the ICU are far from capacity. Not really sure why we're yellow, to be honest.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#40

Post by jmkerr »

m0zg wrote: post #25

Would be cool to have this for NY as well. I have this nagging suspicion that the press is only showing the small number of hospitals that are overflowing, and not showing the ones that are under capacity, to stoke panic and drive clicks. Similar to the "mass graves" bullshit they wheeled out the other day. To see why it's bullshit, one has to do some basic arithmetic. Consider that if life expectancy in NY metro are…

So, everything is normal if we just ignore a factor of ten here and there :)
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