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The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

neilwithdata.com

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Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#491

Post by hinkley »

pdimitar wrote: post #295
hinkley wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or what if I’m being picky? I made a mistake of expediency in accepting my current job, and it’s not the first time. Several people I trust have been trying to talk me into applying to more places and turning them down if I don’t see what I’m looking for on their end. But they tend to overbook and one of the first things to go is your opportunity to ask questions. Which is, really, as good a way to learn about someon…

Not sure what part of my comment you replied to exactly? I also am kind of picky although I am not sure how wise that is in the current crisis.

Yeah that's a fair question.

I think it depends on the context. To be picky, you could just send out a lot of resumes, and I as a prospective employer wouldn't have any clue how many you've sent, as long as you are still at your old company the whole time.

However if you have a good emergency fund, your old company folds, and you are being picky, people start to suspect you are unemployable after a bit.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#492

Post by cosmodisk »

jermaustin1 wrote: post #405
cosmodisk wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen some tech jobs here in London essentially requiring to be a graduate from one of 5 or so universities in the country. However,these were more senior positions that'd require years of industry experience. And then they moan they can't get Java devs for £150K/year...

In years past, I've seen a plethora of £700-1200/day contracts in London for candidates with only 2 years of experience and no education requirement. And it has always made me wonder why they were offering such high pay for such low experience, when salaried positions in London are lower than NYC, and most of the contract work I see in NYC are half that rate.

I don't think most of those ads had any sense at all tbh( I used to see a lot of them as wel) and here's why: 99% of these jobs are in financial sector, especially in trading branches). Most of them may only require 2 years or so experience, however the experience they need are in some esoteric products/services one can only learn/access if in this kind of job( i.e. FX trading platforms, interbank settlement software,some random inhouse thing that connects to NASDAQ,etc.) The reality is that for most of those jobs there are only 50-100 people in the city who can do it and they are all employed and they all know it.So any recruiter worth his salt knows most of them by name,as they just keep crossing the road from one bank to another every couple of years. So all these ads do serve is some newly hired recruiter with no contacts, who hopes some random guy from abroad will have the necessary experience and won't understand the market situation.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#493

Post by stevenwoo »

StandardFuture wrote: post #123
stevenwoo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sculptor’s resume is their portfolio, and having worked on screening artists for jobs, that is the first thing we examined, and for online hires, the only thing we could examine. This is a false equivalence.

It is only a false equivalence in that programming literally != sculpting. It is a relevant analogy, however.

It's still not - we would not ask someone to make a painting or drawing or animation or maquette or 3d model on the spot during an on site/video interview ( maybe you might personally but that generally not practiced) - that is directly analogous.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#494

Post by drngdds »

jackcosgrove wrote: post #22

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

I'd be 100% fine with difficult technical interviews if they actually reflected the job I was going to do. I wouldn't resent spending time outside work studying things that will help me in my day-to-day anyway. What sucks is having to bust your ass studying things that you'll never use.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#495

Post by Drecula »

jiveturkey wrote: post #477
Drecula wrote: post #439

Given HN's demographics, I'm probably older than most here. I've worked with and personally invented quite a few great products, usually spanning Product, UX, and Engineering work. It's a joke to pretend ageism isn't a thing, and asking questions that only a recent CS grad is going to remember is not a tacit form of filtering for age. There's not many technical questions a fairly smart, non-lazy person with some expe…

You say that as if you were born perfect. As someone of elder years myself (and not just by SV standards), what you are saying is quite obvious to anyone with experience. But when you're young and know everything, it's not so obvious. We too, were brave believers of complex == good in our youth. Well, I sure was. It's also important to learn by failing (aka learn by doing). Like parenting, there are many things in or…

I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was born perfect. That wasn't what I was trying to convey. Yes, we learn by making mistakes, and I've sure made at least my fair share of them. My point is that horking out algorithms on demand is definitely not the same thing as being a competent software engineer, nor is it particularly predictive of the likelihood of developing those skills. Also, I measure my success by the people I've helped and the impact I have on the business. For instance, figuring out how to eliminate 500,000+ lines of code from a codebase strikes me as way more valuable than hopping about at a whiteboard like a trained monkey. Ask better questions, get more impactful employees.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#496

Post by Drecula »

ativzzz wrote: post #473
Drecula wrote: post #439

Given HN's demographics, I'm probably older than most here. I've worked with and personally invented quite a few great products, usually spanning Product, UX, and Engineering work. It's a joke to pretend ageism isn't a thing, and asking questions that only a recent CS grad is going to remember is not a tacit form of filtering for age. There's not many technical questions a fairly smart, non-lazy person with some expe…

Ok cool, so how do companies adjust their hiring processes and be able to objectively measure what makes you a qualified candidate?

I've got close to a 100% success rate at take home coding challenges. I usually get pulled in because I'm an Architect that codes, so I ask for an end to end thing to solve.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#497

Post by asn0 »

bleah1000 wrote: post #300
asn0 wrote: post #154

We (Ambra Health) a few years ago decided our "typical" multi-hour multi-week interview process was a lot of effort for pretty mixed outcomes. We realized an interview can't really answer the most important questions: how a candidate works, and what's it like to work together. So we added an option to interview by way of a paid trial period (work part-time nights/weekends for a few weeks with the hiring team). Figure…

I'm sure you get good outcomes from this, but I'd be willing to bet you are completely weeding out whole classes of people. For example, most parents or caregivers (single or otherwise) don't necessarily have the time for this. Senior engineers are less likely to want to go through this. I would guess that most of your hires are single young people. And you are already kind of teaching them to work nights and weekend…

We don't require the trial period - it is offered as an option - we're not going to jeopardize a good candidate if they can't do a trial period.

Everyone we have offered the option has taken it, and they're usually pretty enthusiastic about it vs traditional interview process. We're working with them a lot during the trial period, and after if they get hired - lots of opportunity to find out how they're doing, and so far no negative feedback.

At the point where we move to the trial, we don't usually know age (because we haven't even seen the candidate) or family status. From what I've picked up, it's a mix of ages (usually a bit older - we've found some experience is necessary to be successful as remote-only), and mix of single, married, and families.

For those who have ended up hired - I think most are parents with younger families.

Other than the trial period, nobody usually works nights or weekends.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#498

Post by learc83 »

lmm wrote: post #391
commandlinefan wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> am I supposed to sink into something before I'm permitted to pass judgement I don't have a medical degree, but I still trust medical science. Why? Because it achieves positive results, and people I trust for other reasons trust them.

Ok, but is that true of CS teaching? The best programmers I've worked with have mostly not had CS degrees (tended to have degrees in maths, physics, or that sort of area).

>The best programmers I've worked with have mostly not had CS degrees (tended to have degrees in maths, physics, or that sort of area).

There's no you were rigorous enough in tracking this for this statement to be useful to anyone. The people who don't fit the mold stand out.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#499

Post by Drecula »

el_benhameen wrote: post #463
Drecula wrote: post #439

Given HN's demographics, I'm probably older than most here. I've worked with and personally invented quite a few great products, usually spanning Product, UX, and Engineering work. It's a joke to pretend ageism isn't a thing, and asking questions that only a recent CS grad is going to remember is not a tacit form of filtering for age. There's not many technical questions a fairly smart, non-lazy person with some expe…

Thanks for sharing your experience. Where do you tend to find jobs?

I already know I'll never get into a FAANG, so I don't bother looking there. Also, I look at the team photos on startup websites, and if no one looks over 40, I don't bother with that either. Otherwise, it's just down to finding a place that has problems to solve that are hard enough to be interesting.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#500

Post by asn0 »

clarry wrote: post #412
bleah1000 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you get good outcomes from this, but I'd be willing to bet you are completely weeding out whole classes of people. For example, most parents or caregivers (single or otherwise) don't necessarily have the time for this. Senior engineers are less likely to want to go through this. I would guess that most of your hires are single young people. And you are already kind of teaching them to work nights and weekend…

I think I'd like this even if I were married, as long as the trial period isn't too long and interview experience indicates that I should have a good chance of landing the job. Contrast with the alternative: I'm a senior, considering switching jobs, but I have no real way to evaluate the potential new employer beyond word-of-mouth and interview experience. What if it turns out to be a place I don't like and I just ga…

When we offer the trial option, this is the #1 reason most people are interested in it. They are just as concerned about evaluating us, as we are about evaluating them.
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