Live data from Hacker News

The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

neilwithdata.com

441–450 of 590 posts

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And a few angry senior engineers out there saying "Why do I have to keep writing fizzbuzz? Its like I have to prove over and over again that I can program at all!". You didn't address this part of the problem. This friction is one of the reasons the job market is so distorted.

This is the issue I have faced, and probably why I am leaving this whole mess behind. I still love engineering, but it's time to move to a mentor/consulting role. I've been in this game for over 10 years, and just can't be arsed to do any more testing. I once had someone ask me what a "cookie" was... Storytime: I used to work at a huge Japanese multinational (you can probably guess which one), and I rose through the…

Another observation: I don't think there is a single company I've successfully working at in the past, where I could pass their interview process today (including my current company). Companies are being extraordinarily picky now, and the interview bar just keeps going up and up.

Companies keep complaining that they can't find talent, while their interviewers are asking candidates to implement red-black trees on a whiteboard in 5 minutes.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#442
I feel similarly as the author but I'm starting to take a more balanced approach to all of this and it's helping me put things into perspective. I'll play the game because I'm not sure what other choice I have. I don't enjoy my current job and in order to get the jobs I want with the people I want to work with this is the price. That being said, it's absurd we have to do this EVERY DAMN TIME. Even moving between FAANG requires you to do this. That in and of itself is a clear indication of how bad of a signal this interview process is. Reviewing reddit and team blind and HN (as this is the best data that I have), it seems many folks working at a big tech company still need to leetcode to move to another big tech company despite already passing the bar at one! If that isn't a clear indication of the type of information these interviews provide I don't know what other evidence we need.

And here is the real crux of the whole thing. Considering how standard it is, we might as well just make it a part of a software developer certification/license that you have to do once to break into the industry. The funny thing is, despite our best efforts to not become a real standard profession we are behaving a lot like one, except we don't realize it and keep making candidates jump through the same hoops repeatedly.

Now many of you will balk at the prospect of standardizing but hear me out. Are we really that different from any other profession? At the end of the day most CS curriculums are very much the same. Why can't we do standardized tests to "pass the bar" so to speak? And additional certifications can be taken for specialties (e.g. ML, Cyber Security, Finance etc.) like in many other engineering professions or like specializing in medicine.

Yes, knowing algorithms and data structures IS imporant to being a good software developer, even if you are building CRUD or mobile apps. But, how many times to do I need to prove I know them? Yes, showing leadership skills IS important to being a good software developer. But isn't being a leader mostly about conflict management, moral obligation and being ethical?

Maybe we can stop fearing becoming a real profession that is beholden to standards and public scrutiny and embrace it. It will end up being better for everyone.

For juniors (not in age, but in experience), it offers a consistent predictable way to learn and grow, and a set of criteria they can focus on learning to land junior positions. From there we can treat them like apprentices, and to get certification you need to spend x number of years being supervised. This allows companies to also retain their junior talent for longer and their investment in their training can pay off in the long run because even if they lose a junior who's now certified, they can hire a recently certified intermediate from another company!

For seniors, it means we can focus on demonstrating why we are seniors (i.e. I've built these systems, led these projects, etc.), and offers a real honest predictable path to becoming a staff or principal (i.e. a master).

For companies, it means they can focus on hiring PEOPLE, not leetcoding machines. They shouldn't have to worry about assessing the technical skills of individuals. The only reason they do so is because they feel they have to. If they had confidence that the people they are interviewing are likely qualified as it is, then they can actually focus their time and effort on more important things to assess such as if a person is a good fit for the mission. People assume companies do this because they want to haze candidates. The reality is, companies just don't have any better way of de-risking their hires at this time.

We can revisit the criteria regularly to make sure the tests we need to pass represent what it means to be do our jobs and do them well. We can have industry input, academic input and so on. We can even have the professional body accredit programs so as not to have candidates waste their time and to ensure academic programs keep up with the advances industry makes. Further, we can make this a global thing.

Rather than shunning becoming a true profession, let's learn from the mistakes of other professions and build a process that helps everyone.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#443
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been in the industry for 20 years and have worked for a lot of companies, some very big names, and have been in a hiring position for the last 10 years or so. I’ve never once noticed or cared about an applicant’s university, nor has anyone I worked with. So, anecdotes be anecdotal.

Sounds like you're just projecting your own mentality on everyone you've ever worked with for some reason.

That’s probably true to an extent, but I have had many conversations with hiring folks. University never once came up. Anyway, my point is that anecdotal evidence is all I see in this discussion, so who knows what reality is?

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that you can succeed well at tech companies without a degree from a top school. Class, race, gender, sexual orientation are not barriers to success. That's the positive thing. The negative thing is that most tech companies heavily favor "top school" candidates and actively recruit for them. They would rather higher someone provably less qualified from a "top school" than someone else. They track and boast…

One of my previous bosses (at a large tech company) moved over to the US and was asked to hire 9-10 people in a quarter. Everyone said it was impossible. She went to LinkedIn, found people with the right skills (strong data and ability to communicate), and had a massive fight with HR because none of the candidates came from "top" schools. She won the argument, and all of the hired candidates did a great job. People (…

>(especially US people for some reason) seem overly obsessed with the university someone attended

That happens literally everywhere, especially at big companies that make easy money. The elites don't like sharing the pie with the great unwashed.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#445
Let's also not forget the bias of Indians only hiring other Indians. There's entire product development teams in the Bay area that are close to 100% Indian. Sorry, I don't buy the excuse that's the only people available to hire. How does this relate to competence and the quality of the engineering work product? Race, gender, age, do NOT matter. So, why the pro-Indian bias?

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#446
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as a former Googler who did hundreds of interviews there, let me tell you you're wrong. It wasn't bias free even years ago, and Google has gone much more hard-core SJW since then. It's still much better than at most companies, and the article we're discussing is so wrong about the way executives are hired. But Google isn't some paragon of freedom from bias, far from it. Ignore yourself. The system surrounding you…

Nothing you're referring to has anything to do with the actual hiring process. None of the issues you listed makes anyone more or less likely to pass the hiring committee. Offers are based on merit as much as they can be. You just have a problem with efforts to reach out to people who normally have a hard time making it into the industry.

Every one of those 6 points made have to do directly with the hiring process. Supporting education and outreach for underrepresented groups is a noble cause, but when it gets to the point of giving a group an easier interview path the hiring is by nature not merit based. In the long run, this will only undermine the efforts to get these groups involved by forcing experience to be viewed with the asterisk that they may or may not have earned their position.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we all like to complain when we don't get the job we want. It doesn't matter what the process is, some form of song and dance is needed.

I think the thing people are "on about" is that we have become so cynical about the current status quo, that there's no oxygen left to have a real conversation about what constitutes a true "false negative". It would require some sort of longer-term data gathering around the rejection / ghosting process. For example, Google claims to be very objective and data-driven about their hiring process, but once a candidate i…

I’ve been rejected from Google, and a year later they reached back out asking if I wanted to try again. The recruiter even told me over the phone that most people they hire these days have already been rejected at least once before. So they openly acknowledge that a lot of times their best bet is to get people back in the door who they know were close. I’m curious how they determine the timing. Why wait a year vs 6 months vs 1 month?

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#448
I posted this comment yesterday buried in some thread and even though it was buried it still got 37 up votes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22821318

I post a similar comment in this thread and it gets downvoted to user flagged:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22831474

Perhaps the largest handicap in developer hiring is bias as evident by the stark contrast in response to these two comments that convey identical sentiments about the same subject with slightly different language and yet receive opposite response.

A company is a absolutely not objective in their candidate selection if developers are the deciding factor in the hiring of other developers.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#449
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Computer science isn't supposed to teach you how to program Perhaps, but it's still the closest thing the industry has to a "programming education"; I think it's the first thing employers look for, rightly or wrongly. > it's kind of silly to judge a whole subject by the first year How many of my limited days on the planet am I supposed to sink into something before I'm permitted to pass judgement? At some point Sto…

>How many of my limited days on the planet am I supposed to sink into something before I'm permitted to pass judgement? More than the first quarter of it. I took at least a year of math classes, and I don't feel qualified to pass judgement on the math department. There's a huge difference between intro and upper level classes. Just like there's a difference between Calc I and proof heavy upper level math class. That…

What's that saying, takes about 10,000 hours of study, practice and application to master anything, regardless of what it is.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#450

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

> Because you don't know someone

Let's be honest. It totally helps to know someone even in tech even with technical interviews. If you know someone in a group you're interviewing in they'll often give you hints about what the questions will be. They'll even give the exact questions that will be asked. This helps a lot in narrowing down your studying for the test... err... interview.

Post reply on HN