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The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

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Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#421
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is the part where you give junior pay raise after he or she learns enough to get raise elsewhere.

A lot of companies struggle to match internal comp changes with what they'd actually offer on day one, for some reason. But there are bigger problems. I've experimented with training people in various ways over the years. Reality is programmers move around a lot. They are attracted by interesting new problems where they feel they're learning. Staying at one firm for 20 years isn't likely these days. There's nothing w…

> if you spend a few years training someone then after that time period they may leave anyway

If it takes years of training till the person is useful and worth it, then there is something wrong with the way training is organized. We give juniors easier tasks then to seniors and train them, but we also expect them to be useful from the start basically.

It really should not take years till they make enough work for for salary + training.

> If a junior comes to work one day and says "We need to Kubernetize all our things" and you say "Actually, our server count is stable and low, we don't need to use Kubernetes, but we do need this new customer-facing feature implemented" then it's quite possible they'll get frustrated, want to argue with you. Of course replace Kubernetes with Haskell, Linux distro of the day, Rust, Go, whatever seems hip and new.

There is no difference between senior wanting to change things. This sort of conflict is normal and final decision is not done by junior.

Most people actually can handle not being given their way all the time. If they have no zone for own autonomy or decisions then they will get frustrated. But that zone should be smaller then the massive architectural decision.

Moreover, portion of people pushing toward new technology and being willing to experiment is something that company should have to keep healthy. Otherwise you all will stagnate.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I extract from your reply is what I am actively trying to teach myself: DON'T. TAKE. ANYTHING. PERSONALLY. Yeah? BTW I am not exactly young -- 40 y/o with 18 years of professional experience (not claiming anything about quality). I was just objecting to your general premise that if somebody isn't snatched immediately then they must be mediocre because I've witnessed programmers times better than me (whose sole e…

Imagine a scale from 1 to 10. A 10 means "The interview process is fine. It judges people fairly and objectively, and works well for both candidates and companies". A 1 on the scale means "The whole interview process does a disservice to almost everyone it touches, and reflects badly on our industry as a whole" Where do you think we are? Personally I think we're at about a 7. Which is to say, I agree with you. I've i…

Where is the evidence for any of this? Like, truly, I hear this line about how there is approximately nobody who is competent, and I honestly think it is BS. What evidence is the claim based on? Is it that you've seen how well people do in interviews and noticed that only a small number of them perform well? How would you falsify the hypothesis that those people are fully capable of being excellent employees and are just not good at playing this particular interview game?

I think people with your mindset have just repeated this over and over again to the point that we all take it as axiomatic. It also strokes our ego ("I can do something that basically nobody can even learn how to do!") so it's easy to maintain the farce.

This is the second time in this thread that I've seen the claim that the anger is driven by people who feel let down by the system. That's not me, the system has worked really well for me. But I still think it is a hall of mirrors that could be serious improvement. Not a 7, more like a 3 or 4, and held back by both people who think it works really well and people who think it's a bad solution but that there isn't really a better one (which I'm more sympathetic to).

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#423

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

Oh good weekly 'hiring is broken' thread. I was stuck in stages 2 and 4 ( anger and depression) of 'unable to land a faang(ish) job grief' for years and would make angry comments on this weekly thread. I think I've made peace with it and I hope to be in stage 5 acceptance. I've been leetcoding every single day for last 3 months, 300 problems in I can hit my target of one easy and one medium with 1 hr goal. I hope to…

I'm guessing you're being downvoted because your response hasn't offered anything terribly constructive to the conversation, but I have to actually commend your attitude as I have reached a similar mentality. I am Leetcoding, still suck at it but persisting. I'll play the game because I'm not sure what other choice I have. I don't enjoy my current job and in order to get the jobs I want with the people I want to work with this is the price. That being said, it's absurd we have to do this EVERY DAMN TIME. Even moving between FAANG requires you to do this. That in and of itself is a clear indication of how bad of a signal this interview process is. Reviewing reddit and team blind and HN, it seems many folks working at a big tech company still need to leetcode to move to another big tech company despite already passing the bar at one! If that isn't a clear indication of the type of information these interviews provide I don't know what other evidence we need.

Considering how standard it is, we might as well just make it a part of a software developer certification/license that you have to do once to break into the industry.

Then maybe companies can actually focus on hiring for the job?

Even then, I've started to ask what "hiring for the job" means. General aptitude in our field should be a good indicator of ability to learn and pick up skills in different specialties.

The funny thing is, despite our best efforts to not become a real standard profession we are behaving a lot like one, except we don't realize it and keep making candidates jump through the same hoops repeatedly.

Getting many software jobs is still about network and recommendations.

Getting many software jobs is about a standardized base level skillset and knowledge (i.e. leetcoding).

Getting many software jobs is about specializing in a domain and skillset (for e.g. ML or finance or cyber security and all their respective languages and frameworks).

And as many commentors have mentioned we aren't as meritocratic as we would like to believe. We still bring our biases to the hiring process. We still hire people we like for subjective reasons over others.

My point is this. Maybe, just maybe, it's time we as an industry standardized the profession officially and codified what it takes to get certain positions. That's what I can offer to this conversation constructively.

Yes, knowing algorithms and data structures IS imporant to being a good software developer, even if you are building CRUD or mobile apps. But, how many times to do I need to prove I know them? Yes, showing leadership skills IS important to being a good software developer. But isn't being a leader mostly about conflict management, moral obligation and being ethical?

Maybe we can stop fearing becoming a real profession that is beholden to standards and public scrutiny and embrace it. It will end up being better for everyone. Then we can revisit the criteria regularly to make sure the tests we need to pass represent what it means to be do our jobs and do them well.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#424

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

There is a spectrum of whiteboarding interviews. When I was 20, I loved whiteboarding interviews. Writing perfect compilable C code to insert into a linked list was awesome! I thought that was super fun. But now days it’s more difficult / intense at some companies.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an employee of Google who is involved in hiring let me tell you the process is extremely rigorous and we work very hard to make it bias free. I am not an unbiased individual myself but when it comes to hiring, I work extra hard to ensure fairness regardless of other person's characteristics.

And as a former Googler who did hundreds of interviews there, let me tell you you're wrong. It wasn't bias free even years ago, and Google has gone much more hard-core SJW since then. It's still much better than at most companies, and the article we're discussing is so wrong about the way executives are hired. But Google isn't some paragon of freedom from bias, far from it. Ignore yourself. The system surrounding you…

All of that should be illegal

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#426

The problem as I see it with focusing on history & people skills too much is a lot of the weak candidates are flat out lying about those kind of things. I've interviewed more people in the last year than any previous year of my career. We found numerous candidates cheating on online coding tests. Weak candidates that fall flat on their face when asked to do something super simple like a FizzBuzz problem list massive…

Ability to invert a binary tree is not what you actually want to measure, but you can't bluff your way through it, so it's an attractive target to measure, especially at a large company trying to have standardized practices. Professional accomplishments is much closer to what you care about, but you can bluff. But it's still possible to give a good subjective interview. Good interviewers will find a area on someone's…

Inverting a binary tree is actually something that weak candidates seem to find a way to cheat on though.

Same thing with Fizzbuzz, so it was an artificial example in my post.

The best thing for us seems to be relatively simple coding questions that are domain specific problems.

My go-to the last year or so has been an interview like this:

1) Give a demo of the product

2) Explain a problem the product has/had to solve

3) Go over the entities/objects involved in the problem

4) Present this as a simplified whiteboard problem

5) Candidate needs to write some code on the board to solve the issue (Typical solutions 6) Discuss scalability of the solution

7) Discuss alternate ways to refactor the larger code base to avoid having to write the algorithm that was written on the whiteboard at all

The process of having to take a problem that comes from a specific product & translate that into code seems to catch the weak candidates that cheated on the online coding tests and bluffed the recruiter nearly every time.

This is as opposed to places like Google that just constantly try to ramp up the difficulty of the non real-world coding questions they're asking the interviewee.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh good weekly 'hiring is broken' thread. I was stuck in stages 2 and 4 ( anger and depression) of 'unable to land a faang(ish) job grief' for years and would make angry comments on this weekly thread. I think I've made peace with it and I hope to be in stage 5 acceptance. I've been leetcoding every single day for last 3 months, 300 problems in I can hit my target of one easy and one medium with 1 hr goal. I hope to…

I'm guessing you're being downvoted because your response hasn't offered anything terribly constructive to the conversation, but I have to actually commend your attitude as I have reached a similar mentality. I am Leetcoding, still suck at it but persisting. I'll play the game because I'm not sure what other choice I have. I don't enjoy my current job and in order to get the jobs I want with the people I want to work…

> your response hasn't offered anything terribly constructive to the conversation

because this hiring thing is the ultimate dead horse of HN. Every single comment here is a rehash of something that has been said a million times.

Here is the one from last week

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22739605

exact same comments.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most tech companies heavily favor "top school" candidates and actively recruit for them Good job prospects upon graduation is one of the things that makes a school a "top school" and attracts smart students. If you wanted to hire people with no work experience, and money was no object, a "top school" would be the logical place to go to first. And I say this as someone who didn't go to a top school. So tech companie…

I've seen some tech jobs here in London essentially requiring to be a graduate from one of 5 or so universities in the country. However,these were more senior positions that'd require years of industry experience. And then they moan they can't get Java devs for £150K/year...

Are those jobs in specific industries? Like financial tech jobs.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#429
post #154

We (Ambra Health) a few years ago decided our "typical" multi-hour multi-week interview process was a lot of effort for pretty mixed outcomes. We realized an interview can't really answer the most important questions: how a candidate works, and what's it like to work together. So we added an option to interview by way of a paid trial period (work part-time nights/weekends for a few weeks with the hiring team). Figure…

> paid trial period Wow, if you say so, but that seems weird to me: every job I've ever had (and everybody else I've ever seen hired at any job I've ever had) it's taken quite a while before I was really able to contribute much productively. Just getting acquainted with the codebase, figuring out the deploy process, and learning all the unwritten rules about the company culture takes a non-negligible amount of time.

Excellent candidates can and do find ways to deliver value in their first week and more in their second. Even if it’s demonstrating the ability to learn how the product it deployed and how the team work, that ability to learn quickly and communicate with the team is valuable.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#430

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

Well, it's problematic to me. I can ace any test on written paper, but my social anxiety is configured in such a way that I become a blubbering idiot if someone is looking at the back of my head.

My ability to do really well on written tests actually got me into Stanford, despite coming from a pretty normal middle class background -- my dad worked for suburban city government. If I had majored in CS instead of science, I would be a shoe in, but alas I didn't.

If they could just do the tests slightly differently I could ace them. Instead, I'm mainly just avoiding the FAANG world. If I spent another 80 hours practicing them I might have a shot, but eh...

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