Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You've got to know if the other person can code. Lots of people can talk a mean game and make nothing and few people can spot them. If only this were true. I've co-authored a (technical) book, edited another, have dozens of OSS contributions, and GitHub projects with hundreds of stars. Everyone still tries to whiteboard interview me. Usually I tell them to screw off, but still. My theory is that (a) people are too…
Man the guy you responded to is right. I've interviewed and mistakenly hired several types of these people. Here's the thing, you're not too wrong either. I don't doubt that there are tons of great programmers who can't pass a technical whiteboard interview for various reasons. But without a doubt if you pass a whiteboard interview your success at that interview is highly highly correlated with your success at the jo…
The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
361–370 of 590 posts
Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's extremely saddening how prevalent this prejudice is. Prejudice? Look, companies wouldn't be advertising for roles if they didn't think qualified candidates (like you?) are out there. But its a numbers game; of course there are more unqualified people looking for work than qualified people at any given moment. Qualified people don't get snapped up immediately ; but they aren't usually actively looking for work…
What I extract from your reply is what I am actively trying to teach myself: DON'T. TAKE. ANYTHING. PERSONALLY. Yeah? BTW I am not exactly young -- 40 y/o with 18 years of professional experience (not claiming anything about quality). I was just objecting to your general premise that if somebody isn't snatched immediately then they must be mediocre because I've witnessed programmers times better than me (whose sole e…
A 10 means "The interview process is fine. It judges people fairly and objectively, and works well for both candidates and companies".
A 1 on the scale means "The whole interview process does a disservice to almost everyone it touches, and reflects badly on our industry as a whole"
Where do you think we are?
Personally I think we're at about a 7. Which is to say, I agree with you. I've interviewed people like that and it breaks my heart every time to hear their stories. But I think there's a silent majority for whom the interview process works as intended.
- About 0.5% of people I've interviewed had amazing skills but were unable to explain those skills on a resume, and wouldn't be able to get their foot in the door at most companies they applied to
- At a guess there's probably another ~3% or so of candidates who just for one reason or another don't come across well. They don't look or sound like they know what they're talking about, or something else is going on for them. But they actually have great technical skills when you get down to it. I suspect those people struggle to find work in most normal hiring processes.
- (I have other criticisms too - like how we don't give people feedback after interviews)
But thats ... I mean, it matters, but I think the cohort of "unappreciated gems in the rough" has to be in the small single digit percentages. There's a lot of blog posts complaining about hiring in general that hit the front page of HN, but I don't think they're fair representation of the state of software engineering hiring across the board. Great people getting looked over are the exception. The awful truth is that most people, most of time are judged fairly in job interviews based on their skills. Its just that programming is really hard and almost everyone in the world is terrible at it. Its so hard to learn that you can go into massive debt and spend years studying it in school, and still be mostly unemployable out the other end. In fact I suspect most people fresh out of school struggle to find work, because they just aren't very good yet.
So no wonder these posts get upvoted on HN. People have a really good reason to feel angry and let down by the system. The story that you're a gem and you're being passed over by the soulless corporations is a much easier pill to swallow than the idea that you're being looked over because you aren't very good at programming. And your degree means nothing, and from here it'll take you years to get good at programming, if you ever manage it. And nobody wants to take the time to teach you on the job. And nobody thought to tell you any of this while you were in school.
I don't know who's fault it is - if anyone's. Companies are doing whats in their best interest. Schools are doing their best to teach CS to everyone who wants to learn it. People think going to school to learn programming means they can find useful work out the other end. I'd like to think that most do, eventually. But there's a chasm in the middle that nobody talks about. A chasm between knowledge and programming jobs. Many people never find their way out of that gap. We don't even tell people its there.
Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
#363> Developer hiring is broken This seems to be a pretty popular opinion. It totally might be right, but it’s not my own experience, so I have a serious question because maybe I don’t know what’s happening out there with most hiring today - what are the broad-stroke outcomes that demonstrate that hiring isn’t working? Are there statistics that show that hiring has problems? All of the reasons given in the article are c…
I'm a software engineer working at a company in the hiring space. I've done over 400 technical interviews in the last year alone, and ... this is a hot take, and not the view of my employer, but I think developer hiring processes are fine (At least, at most mature companies.) There's a problem at the moment in the market that there's a huge amount of pent up demand for senior developers. The market has responded with…
.. which is really unfortunate, because those big companies are the ones that have the most resources to hire, train, and mentor juniors. At the opposite end we have small companies that can literally go bankrupt when their hire doesn't work out and is unable to deliver working software. Even if the hire works out well enough, they're not learning as much as they could in a well resourced team with enough serious talent & seniors to mentor them.
> I think the real sin is that we're afraid to tell people they aren't very good at programming yet, and we use technical interviews as a scape goat.
I don't know if it's useful to tell people that they aren't very good. It's a serious chicken & egg problem because everybody wants to hire seniors that can hit the road running and nobody wants to train the juniors. The juniors really don't need to be told that they aren't good enough, they need a place where they can get good!
Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
#364This article was painful for me to read, mostly because of how accurately it reflected my experience with job searching. I'm not the worlds most experienced dev who's shipped multiple products, but for a relatively inexperienced (2y professional, 5y total), I feel I am overlooked for positions I would excel in because I am just plain bad at technical interviews. I have a fairly impressive github, a creative cv and re…
Either you will learn the skill enough or you will find a position that fits your current skillset along the way. Being understood by other people is where the rubber meets the road for ideas having any impact and communicating your technical ideas is an important skill in general.
Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
Out of curiosity, where in the Midwest?
And, if you have both software people and machinists, do you do embedded software?
Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
No sane non-narcissistic person will ever fathom doing 2 PhDs. You do a PhD to learn how to think and research things. The only reason you would imagine doing a second one (assuming you're not someone who completely misunderstood what a PhD means), is so you can boast about it.
What utter rubbish. I know several people with two PhDs - for example one guy who went from theoretical physics to economics - and they are all humble and brilliant. If I didn't have a family to support and a mortgage to pay, I'd consider doing a second PhD, given how much I enjoyed my first.
I'd say he's extremely unique, it's far from the typical.
Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
#367> Almost no other "white collar" profession I'm aware of will so completely and thoroughly ignore your actual proven ability, historical accomplishments, and holistic qualities, as part of the hiring process. Perhaps that's because programmer is not a white collar profession? Those who don't manage other programmers are naturally at the bottom of the hierarchy, just like a machinist (clearly a blue collar profession,…
Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
> DBAs becoming engineers Excuse me. Most of the top DBAs in Silicon Valley are former C programmers who probably are better programmers than you. I wish programmers would get over themselves. I've met CTOs who didn't know EXPLAIN. So who's the real engineer?
What is EXPLAIN?
https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/sql-explain.html
Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
#369To the best of my knowledge, my workplace uses a fairly traditional hiring process that's the same for hiring a programmer or a machinist: Resume screen, phone screen, on-site, offer. I have to say we do really darn well, especially given we're located in the Midwest and supposedly the brightest programmers have fled to the hot markets. One thing I like is that we get a range of ages, which is heartwarming given that…
> a fairly traditional hiring process that's the same for hiring a programmer or a machinist: Resume screen, phone screen, on-site, offer. Some years ago, I was looking for a job, and an employed friend of mine sent me a problem and said "this is our hiring challenge. Try it out". I completed it, and she asked for my resume, and turned in both to whoever the relevant person was at her company. She then reported back…
Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring
#370Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…
> Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. > You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. I think it stops being seen as a breath of fresh air when e.g. Google's explicit expectation is that you will spend multiple months studying for the privilege before interviewing with them.
Of course their bar to entry is very high, they are the one of highest paying employers in tech. If you want the pay and prestige, you have to play their game.
Where I would agree with you is when non-Google companies use Google tactics for hiring but pay like a mom and pop shop.