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The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

neilwithdata.com

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Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#321
Just adding on the post. I used to work for big tech companies, I interviewed for some and also I had the pleasure of interviewing candidates. I mostly interviewed for security related roles but at some stage, I had constantly positive feedback from the candidate so I was thrown in to interview candidates for other roles as well.

I agree with the article, and had my fair share of bad apples so my thoughts here. Unless the role was something that required dealing with incidents, there was no point on doing a technical interview onsite and seeing how the candidate reacts under stress. Generally, noone cares how well a candidate performs under stress. Instead, I'd let them deal with technical problems on their own time, if they wanted and tell them to spend no more than 2 days (I'd actually kill the instance to ensure that). For security positions, I ended up building a CTF platform and told them to solve as many challenges as they wish and send back a report.

For the onsite interviews, we did mostly cultural interviews. There was a bit of technical questions involved, mostly open-ended questions to see how they approached a problem. This usually was to design some system or, given a tiny codebase, how they'd go implementing a feature. Also, I did what we ended up naming "spirals". Successive questions, increasing in difficulty to see how much in depth they went during their research. E.g. Traceroute -> Ping -> ICMP -> Differences in Linux vs Windows. This had two benefits. It was clear how much in depth they would go and two, it was almost guaranteed that at some point they wouldn't know the answer, which is fine, but forces them to explain how they would go to find the answer. Almost always, I'd tell them whether they were on the right path and if they were stuck kinda help them. I'd give about 5-10 minutes for the candidate to ask me anything. Literally, anything. For me, this was important because I would get a sense for how candidates evaluated the company and what they were interested in.

Beyond that, at some stage, we added some questions called internally the "I read it on the internet". The questions were pretty straightforward, e.g. given a terminal, tell me how would you ssh in this box as XYZ user or how would you rm a directory. Fun fact. I initially made fun of the operations guys asking those questions until I interviewed a series of people where noone knew how to do simple stuff with their terminals. Btw, I didn't focus at all on technologies. Given the size of the company, asking "How much you know about $LANGUAGE" would be futile. I wanted to hire people who could pick up new technologies and, given the size of the company most of the tools were custom-built or heavily modified. It was pointless asking "$LANGUAGE" and then telling them "Well, great, just keep in mind we don't actually use exactly $LANGUAGE but rather our own version of it". Last, and probably the most important. I asked myself how I wanted to be treated during an interview. I kept in mind that I generally wanted to be treated with dignity and respect, I kept in mind that the resume is basically a snapshot of someone's life and the candidate is a human being and acted accordingly. Also, I valued for candidates who asked for feedback and actually I'd give them some and tell them stuff to read reg. things I felt they could do better. Btw, I also assumed that each candidate would get an offer and I didn't want them coming in and thinking "That's the idiot that was acting cocky during the interview".

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#322

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

I like white boarding for only one reason: so I can really ask questions that makes the interviewer uncomfortable. I don’t like jQuery. I don’t like your big stupid framework or your bullshit design patterns. I am a developer because I like writing code to solve real problems. I want to see, in the flesh, how scared and uncomfortable you are at seeing a candidate write original solutions to real problems. I want to s…

> I want to see, in the flesh, how scared and uncomfortable you are at seeing a candidate write original solutions to real problems.

I've no doubt your code is the best in the world (have you a github repo?), but with that attitude you'd be shown the door quite soon.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like white boarding for only one reason: so I can really ask questions that makes the interviewer uncomfortable. I don’t like jQuery. I don’t like your big stupid framework or your bullshit design patterns. I am a developer because I like writing code to solve real problems. I want to see, in the flesh, how scared and uncomfortable you are at seeing a candidate write original solutions to real problems. I want to s…

> I want to see, in the flesh, how scared and uncomfortable you are at seeing a candidate write original solutions to real problems. I've no doubt your code is the best in the world (have you a github repo?), but with that attitude you'd be shown the door quite soon.

Earlier the better. I am not there to waste your time.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you say Google discriminates on the basis of race? Google told their recruiters to actively not hire white or asian males for certain roles. https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17070624/google-youtube-wi...

As an employee of Google who is involved in hiring let me tell you the process is extremely rigorous and we work very hard to make it bias free. I am not an unbiased individual myself but when it comes to hiring, I work extra hard to ensure fairness regardless of other person's characteristics.

And as a former Googler who did hundreds of interviews there, let me tell you you're wrong. It wasn't bias free even years ago, and Google has gone much more hard-core SJW since then. It's still much better than at most companies, and the article we're discussing is so wrong about the way executives are hired. But Google isn't some paragon of freedom from bias, far from it.

Ignore yourself. The system surrounding you is not unbiased and never was. Here are some things I'm aware of that happened at Google/other comparable tech firms:

1. Recruiters tracked the quality of interviewers (as judged by candidate and hiring committee feedback) and assign the best interviewers to women/minorities.

2. Sourcers could get much higher bonuses if they recruited women.

3. Comp can end up artificially higher for women, which obviously is a form of recruiting. At Microsoft managers were given bonus pots that could only be allocated to women.

4. Women who failed phone screens were presented for on-site interviews anyway in the hope that they could somehow make up for it. Men were dropped immediately.

5. Women are targeted with specialist recruiting teams, fought over to a dramatically higher extent than men.

6. Men are sometimes just excluded from recruiting events completely, e.g. "Code Jam to IO for Women".

And you seem to have chosen to ignore flashing red alarms like recruiters filing lawsuits with copies of emails where they were told to stop recruiting white men.

BTW, don't look at the firing process. Unlike hiring+promotion, engineers don't control that, HR does (PeopleOps or whatever it's called now). It's an open secret that at Google it's nearly impossible to get fired if you're a female engineer, even if your performance is terrible and your team hates you. At worst they'll start moving you around.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It varies among the FAANGs, but in my experience Google was the worst with the algorithms above all approach. I actually had one interviewer cut me off after about a minute when I was describing an interesting problem I worked on, saying “yeah ok that’s great let’s get on to the algorithm question.” I’m sure it varies between interviewers but the lineup I had at google clearly didn’t want to dedicate more than a minu…

it was for your own benefit. intro is just to get you relaxed. most of them don't even consider that part in the evaluation. so the less time spent there the more time you can spend on the algo q.

It's counter productive though if the interviewee is cut and gets more stressed out.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that you can succeed well at tech companies without a degree from a top school. Class, race, gender, sexual orientation are not barriers to success. That's the positive thing. The negative thing is that most tech companies heavily favor "top school" candidates and actively recruit for them. They would rather higher someone provably less qualified from a "top school" than someone else. They track and boast…

One of my previous bosses (at a large tech company) moved over to the US and was asked to hire 9-10 people in a quarter. Everyone said it was impossible. She went to LinkedIn, found people with the right skills (strong data and ability to communicate), and had a massive fight with HR because none of the candidates came from "top" schools. She won the argument, and all of the hired candidates did a great job. People (…

I don't presume to know what that depends on, but wherever you go, in my experience, there seems to be a mix of job opportunities that are diploma-centric and skill-centric. What's more, the people I'm interested working with are generally in the latter category. So it's somewhat ironic, but the whole me-not-having-a-top-school-diploma thing works to my advantage by inadvertantly pinpointing the interesting opportunities.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that you can succeed well at tech companies without a degree from a top school. Class, race, gender, sexual orientation are not barriers to success. That's the positive thing. The negative thing is that most tech companies heavily favor "top school" candidates and actively recruit for them. They would rather higher someone provably less qualified from a "top school" than someone else. They track and boast…

> most tech companies heavily favor "top school" candidates and actively recruit for them Good job prospects upon graduation is one of the things that makes a school a "top school" and attracts smart students. If you wanted to hire people with no work experience, and money was no object, a "top school" would be the logical place to go to first. And I say this as someone who didn't go to a top school. So tech companie…

I've seen some tech jobs here in London essentially requiring to be a graduate from one of 5 or so universities in the country. However,these were more senior positions that'd require years of industry experience. And then they moan they can't get Java devs for £150K/year...

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say Google discriminates on the basis of race? I used to work there and was involved in the hiring processes and never saw evidence for this

> Why do you say Google discriminates on the basis of race? Google told their recruiters to actively not hire white or asian males for certain roles. https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17070624/google-youtube-wi...

> Wilberg’s lawsuit targets Google and 25 unnamed Google employees who allegedly enforced discriminatory hiring rules, quoting a number of emails and other documents. It claims that for several quarters, Google would only hire people from historically underrepresented groups for technical positions. In one hiring round, the team was allegedly instructed to cancel all software engineering interviews with non-diverse applicants below a certain experience level, and to “purge entirely any applications by non-diverse employees from the hiring pipeline.” California labor law prohibits refusing to hire employees based on characteristics like race or gender.

Perception shaping is always unsavoury, but that's pretty dark.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it the companies' role to turn those junior developers into senior developers? Where else are they going to come from?

They can make that decision if they want, or they can wait a bit to hire a more experienced dev for money money. I wouldn't say it's their "role" - nobody's forcing them to do so, and if it doesn't help them, I don't see why they would feel obligated to do it

I feel like this is a bit of a self-reinforcing cycle:

“Why would we train them up, they’ll just leave anyway” -> “screw this place, I am going to leave when I get the chance” -> leaves -> go to step 1

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#330
post #154

We (Ambra Health) a few years ago decided our "typical" multi-hour multi-week interview process was a lot of effort for pretty mixed outcomes. We realized an interview can't really answer the most important questions: how a candidate works, and what's it like to work together. So we added an option to interview by way of a paid trial period (work part-time nights/weekends for a few weeks with the hiring team). Figure…

I'm sure you get good outcomes from this, but I'd be willing to bet you are completely weeding out whole classes of people. For example, most parents or caregivers (single or otherwise) don't necessarily have the time for this. Senior engineers are less likely to want to go through this. I would guess that most of your hires are single young people. And you are already kind of teaching them to work nights and weekend…

I suppose this could be done during the day? Taking a day off or two for pair programming is like taking time off for on-sites interviews.
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