The software industry's greatest sin: hiring • Hacker News Board

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#301

Post by pdimitar » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:15 AM UTC

josephg wrote: post #297

pdimitar wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Because people with strong skills get snapped up, and people with weak skills spam their resume everywhere they can.) It's extremely saddening how prevalent this prejudice is. But what if I am still looking for work and companies literally don't reply to my applying to them? I might be the next John Carmack but if nobody gives me a chance (for reasons outside of my control and unrelated to my proficiency) then acc…

> It's extremely saddening how prevalent this prejudice is. Prejudice? Look, companies wouldn't be advertising for roles if they didn't think qualified candidates (like you?) are out there. But its a numbers game; of course there are more unqualified people looking for work than qualified people at any given moment. Qualified people don't get snapped up immediately ; but they aren't usually actively looking for work…

What I extract from your reply is what I am actively trying to teach myself: DON'T. TAKE. ANYTHING. PERSONALLY.

Yeah?

BTW I am not exactly young -- 40 y/o with 18 years of professional experience (not claiming anything about quality). I was just objecting to your general premise that if somebody isn't snatched immediately then they must be mediocre because I've witnessed programmers times better than me (whose sole efforts turned entire companies around) slag around jobless for 6 months and not being able to move beyond 2nd interview even if EVERYBODY told them they like their expertise and demeanour and that they are a good cultural fit.

But you are very likely correct that it's a numbers game and that various circumstances prevent companies to actually actively look for the gems.

So again, I do my best not to take anything personally.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#302

Post by lmm » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:31 AM UTC

opportune wrote: post #258

lmm wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So does this mean that programming education is broken? That companies should invest more in training? That bootcamps should revamp what they teach? That there should be industry standards for what programmers at different levels should be expected to know? Programming education is broken. I did one year of computer science at one of the top universities in the world (switched into mathematics after that), and I'd…

Computer science isn't supposed to teach you how to program, and it's kind of silly to judge a whole subject by the first year. In fact I think you would be making a mistake to focus on the practical courses rather than take as many theoretical and foundational (e.g. advanced algorithms, Theory of Computation, Compilers) courses as you can. A good CS student, who understands the coursework and doesn't cheat, should e…

> Computer science isn't supposed to teach you how to program

Perhaps, but it's still the closest thing the industry has to a "programming education"; I think it's the first thing employers look for, rightly or wrongly.

> it's kind of silly to judge a whole subject by the first year

How many of my limited days on the planet am I supposed to sink into something before I'm permitted to pass judgement? At some point Stockholm Syndrome would take over.

> A good CS student, who understands the coursework and doesn't cheat, should easily become a good enough programmer just from completing coursework in a mostly theoretical program to get hired basically anywhere. Programming is something you learn incidentally because it's intertwined with what you're doing anyway;

That's not what I saw happening (unless you count the official lectures/colloquia as "cheating"; certainly I saw cases where the meat of the answer to a supervision question was spoon-fed to us directly). The people who could program at the end of first year were the people who could program at the beginning or who "got it" immediately. I never saw people struggling with a new concept but then gradually being taught it (which is something I did see happen a lot in the mathematics course), and a frightening proportion of the students I was friendly with were coming out of that first year knowing seemingly nothing, certainly not being able to program or talk coherently about algorithms or computability. I suppose it's conceivable that those students were somehow getting something out of the system design type courses, but it seems implausible.

I understand there was a shake-up in that CS department a few years after I graduated, so maybe I went through it during a bad time. But the students who graduated there in the meantime aren't going to get a do-over.

> I see it as like if I were hiring for something as generic as "writer". It's easy to have a generic "writer" produce a small sample for you on the spot, similar to a CS interview. Of course you can always practice writing directly itself, but I would imagine someone who had completed a lot of coursework in linguistics, classics, literature, etc. would on average be very well-prepared if they were a good student. But you could still practice and teach yourself on your own if you wanted to

I'd suspect the overwhelmingly important part of writing is actually writing; I only know one person who I'd call a great writer, and hanging out with him the thing you notice is that he writes the way other people check their phone. All the things you list can enhance writing, certainly, but if you don't actually write then any amount of knowledge of linguistics or classical literature is meaningless (at least in terms of how it affects your writing ability).

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#303

Post by nsgi » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:34 AM UTC

earthtourist wrote: post #57

jackcosgrove wrote: post #22

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

It is true that you can succeed well at tech companies without a degree from a top school. Class, race, gender, sexual orientation are not barriers to success. That's the positive thing. The negative thing is that most tech companies heavily favor "top school" candidates and actively recruit for them. They would rather higher someone provably less qualified from a "top school" than someone else. They track and boast…

I wouldn't say that's true of most tech companies, maybe the most selective ones.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#304

Post by glangdale » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:36 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #64

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has never ever been true that you can “be a nobody” and get hired on merit alone. Even with dozens of responders to this comment coming to say that’s how they got hired, it’s total round-off error compared to size of tech hiring at large. Your credentials and political connections are what allow your resume through the ten arbitrary filters before you even get to the technical screen, collaborative coding, etc., a…

Totally not my experience. And I do 3-4 hiring interviews a week here in NYC. What connections? First show that you can code; a lot don't pass this filter. Then show that you can architect a large distributed system on a whiteboard; a lot of people applying for a senior software engineer position lack the breadth of knowledge and the consideration required. And after that you'd speak to CTO, where maybe you can say o…

Ah yes, the bane of my existence, again: "senior" == "ability to build large distributed systems".

I mean, hell, that's a great skill. I wish I had it. Then again, I've seen people forced to build "large distributed systems" to solve things I can solve on one thread on one CPU because they don't have my skills. It's almost as if there is more than one skill that qualifies you as "senior" or something!

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#305

Post by Bombthecat » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:42 AM UTC

jackcosgrove wrote: post #22

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

We do whiteboarding, but not because we want to see how God your are to draw neat things. How mucb right you (sure bonus points for vetting it 100 percent right) but if you get it 60 percent right. Explain it nice, asks the right questions. And say where you have no idea. How to go abkit something and maybe even suggest two or three ways to figure it out (or workaround the missing knowledge, technology) the better.

Thats what we want to see.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#306

Post by Icathian » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:50 AM UTC

austhrow743 wrote: post #284

watwut wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is the part where you give junior pay raise after he or she learns enough to get raise elsewhere.

If you're going to end up paying what it would cost you to hire the trained person anyway to avoid having your staff leave for higher wages, that heavily reduces your incentive to put a lot of resources in to training. Training + market rate compensation is more expensive than just market rate compensation.

While this is true, it seems to me that most companies don't actually have both choices. Instead it's "training + market rate compensation" or "you will forever struggle to have enough senior devs to accomplish your goals". If you can't attract talent, you have to grow it and pay to retain it. Simple as that, no?

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#307

Post by thomk » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:52 AM UTC

I never understood why companies don't take a slower, ramp up approach for interviewing.

ROUND 1 THE INTERVIEW

Step 1: Interview candidates for 'culture fit'. Chat on the phone, get to know the person a bit, ask questions about what they did before. See if they have a sense of humor, get them to relax. Don't try to trick them, just have a chat.

Step 2: Ask a few 'how do you think questions'. Why are manhole covers round? How many school busses are in New York City, etc. These are questions with no clear answer and missing input data (like real life). Listen to how they work out problems in their head. Then ask fuzzy questions with no clear answer, and relatively high consequences for rightness or wrongness. See how they deal with that. Ask workplace conflict questions and irate coworker questions, see how they respond. Give them all the time they need.

Step 3: At the end of the interview, send them some take home code projects without a time limit. Give them some toy software program and ask them to fix a few reported bugs in it. Then give them a small greenfield project and see how they structure and document their code.

ROUND 2: THE DATING PERIOD

If all of the above goes well; hire them on a 1 month trial basis and see how everyone works together. Maybe they don't like your company? Maybe they smell funny? Maybe you force everyone to do yoga? Maybe they MUST travel with their service chimpanzee? Who knows? Spend a month working together and find out. If either of you see a red flag; shake hands and go your separate ways.

- - -

My point is this; putting someone through a gauntlet of stressful, random interview questions and whiteboard coding issues makes people stressed and nervous so they do not act like themselves. If the job is a high stress job and it's important to handle a lot of stress; you'll see that during the dating period.

Imagine having to decide if you were going to marry someone based on a few hours of conversation and 'whiteboard coding problems'. It's too much of a commitment with too little information.

Hire people, not machines.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#308

Post by kortilla » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:53 AM UTC

dontreact wrote: post #73

earthtourist wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that you can succeed well at tech companies without a degree from a top school. Class, race, gender, sexual orientation are not barriers to success. That's the positive thing. The negative thing is that most tech companies heavily favor "top school" candidates and actively recruit for them. They would rather higher someone provably less qualified from a "top school" than someone else. They track and boast…

Why do you say Google discriminates on the basis of race? I used to work there and was involved in the hiring processes and never saw evidence for this

Underrepresented groups get more attempts and are actively recruited more.

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#309

Post by Gibbon1 » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:55 AM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #301

josephg wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's extremely saddening how prevalent this prejudice is. Prejudice? Look, companies wouldn't be advertising for roles if they didn't think qualified candidates (like you?) are out there. But its a numbers game; of course there are more unqualified people looking for work than qualified people at any given moment. Qualified people don't get snapped up immediately ; but they aren't usually actively looking for work…

What I extract from your reply is what I am actively trying to teach myself: DON'T. TAKE. ANYTHING. PERSONALLY. Yeah? BTW I am not exactly young -- 40 y/o with 18 years of professional experience (not claiming anything about quality). I was just objecting to your general premise that if somebody isn't snatched immediately then they must be mediocre because I've witnessed programmers times better than me (whose sole e…

> you are very likely correct that it's a numbers game

On the surface it's numbers game. But 2/3rds of getting hired is a confidence game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick

Re: The software industry's greatest sin: hiring

#310

Post by austincheney » Fri, Apr 10, 2020, 9:55 AM UTC

jackcosgrove wrote: post #22

Technical interviews were once seen as a breath of fresh air. You can be a nobody without connections or degrees and if you can prove you have skills during an interview process you may be hired. Contrast this with other hiring processes which are more irrational, like med residency match, investment banks favoring "target school graduates", law firms favoring "top 14 graduates", etc. I think whiteboarding is dumb an…

I like white boarding for only one reason: so I can really ask questions that makes the interviewer uncomfortable. I don’t like jQuery. I don’t like your big stupid framework or your bullshit design patterns. I am a developer because I like writing code to solve real problems. I want to see, in the flesh, how scared and uncomfortable you are at seeing a candidate write original solutions to real problems. I want to see that arrogant look on your face when I violate your unmentioned code style rules. If that scares the shit out of you, as is so often the case, I know I don’t want to work there.

Unfortunately, I have also found that looks impressive during interviews only to not work out in practice once being hired. Not matter what, as a JavaScript developer, people are scared to death if you write original code.