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Why I’m Leaving Elm

lukeplant.me.uk

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Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#361

Post by foldr »

iopq wrote: post #359
jlokier wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But he didn't ask for work to be done anywhere in the article? He asks that he not be prevented from writing code that the compiler supports, but which is arbitrarily limited to members of certain organizations. That's not asking for work. But that is asking for work! That's a great example of "why don't you just... $TRIVIAL" where $TRIVIAL = "turn off the restrictions", as if there is no consequent problem for the…

The initial complaint was "can you just not do the restrictions in the first place?" which was ignored It's asking them to do less work

No, it isn't. This point is explicitly addressed at the beginning of the post you're responding to.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#362

Post by foldr »

Talanes wrote: post #283
fxtentacle wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article's criticism about the 0.18 to 0.19 issues is spot-on, but I agree with you that the author comes off as feeling entitled. The reason why Elm is fun to work with is that it's Evan sharing his hobby project with you. And that's it. There is no support, no long-term maintenance, no implied warranty, nothing. Still, it works for me :) and it is Open Source in the way that I can fix bugs myself, if I have to.…

If something is just your personal, no-pressure, hobby project, maybe don't convince people to implement it in production?

People have to take responsibility for their own decisions about what to use in production.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#363

Post by alecthomas »

antew wrote: post #12

I've been working in Elm for a few years, and I feel like I can answer some of the questions. 0.19 introduced a new restriction on Native code (javascript), previously you could compile kernel code in your own projects, now you can't. You've never been able to publish a package using native code to the package site (only packages under the elm or elm-explorations github namespace can). If you feel strongly about it t…

He mentions custom elements here[1]. I don't speak Elm, so I'm not sure if it's what you're referring to.

[1] https://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-im-leaving-elm/#id14

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#364

Post by xupybd »

chase-sequence wrote: post #352
xupybd wrote: post #318

Evan is brilliant, Elm even more so. There are trade offs that they are making that I totally understand. There is one way to do things. There is one path to fix things. Everything works one way and works incredibly well. But those trade offs come at a cost. It is very hard to take Elm into production having to put all of your trust in Evan and the few in his company. There are going to be times that your bugs are no…

I cannot understand how one could call something "so perfect" if it cannot be feasibly considered for use in production. How can something perfect come with so many drawbacks and warnings?

Please forgive my hyperbole.

Elm achieves simplicity and reliability by having it's entire eco system locked down.

But it turns out the same things that make it a brilliant developer experience make it unusable in production.

I suspect I can and might use it in production but if I do I will be putting a lot of trust in one guy. No one else can really take over.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#365

Post by toastal »

olvn wrote: post #140
cultofmetatron wrote: post #118

This came at an awkward time. I just bought Richard Feldman's book "Elm in Action" a few days ago and was working through the first 2 chapters. This has made me reconsider my intention use Elm in my startup. Having features randomly fail on me and having to rewrite an entire library in elm vs calling out to js means less time creating features that matter to my customers! I was drawn to elm as a way of spending less…

You can call out to JS using ports and custom elements and accomplish nearly everything you could possibly need. This blog post is focusing on a largely undocumented, always discouraged "feature" (used loosely, as even from its inception it was verboten, couldn't be distributed via the official package manager, etc.) which allowed users to hack library support directly into the Elm language while risking (and losing!…

This is untrue--and I'm not entirely sure you followed the article. You can't do synchronous tasks like Intl's format for strings from floats as many locales use "," over ".". It is a pure function `Float -> String`. This should not have to go through the entire update cycle to handle receiving these kinds of value. Using ports adds async to this equation which means you need to write the ports, and handle and store all temporary values which tightly couples and makes a mess everything.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#366

Post by neutronicus »

leshow wrote: post #103
haolez wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of leadership gave us Go. It's not necessarily bad. If everyone gets their way with the language specs, then all languages will look like a weird dialect of C++ :)

You'll find examples on both sides. Rust is a great example of a successful language growing in the open.

Rust is also an example of a language that leans pretty heavily into "familiar C++ syntax as a marketing tool."

Although they did not cave on the Ternary Operator. About which a certain contingent (myself included) is vocally unhappy.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#367

Post by LandR »

superdisk wrote: post #145

I fully agree with everything listed in this article. One point he alluded to (by mentioning the "friendly" exclamation marks) but didn't fully address is the Elm community's bizarre and infuriating language policing. You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incess…

> I fully agree with everything listed in this article. One point he alluded to (by mentioning the "friendly" exclamation marks) but didn't fully address is the Elm community's bizarre and infuriating language policing.

Is this something that is unique to IT folk? I don't hear about this in other fields, but that might be because I'm not exposed to it.

Or is their something about IT / programming that just attracts these people who are so easily offended / find offence in everything?

Maybe because they are mostly young?

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#368

Post by foldr »

LandR wrote: post #367
superdisk wrote: post #145

I fully agree with everything listed in this article. One point he alluded to (by mentioning the "friendly" exclamation marks) but didn't fully address is the Elm community's bizarre and infuriating language policing. You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incess…

> I fully agree with everything listed in this article. One point he alluded to (by mentioning the "friendly" exclamation marks) but didn't fully address is the Elm community's bizarre and infuriating language policing. Is this something that is unique to IT folk? I don't hear about this in other fields, but that might be because I'm not exposed to it. Or is their something about IT / programming that just attracts t…

In the past few decades, there's been a broad movement to stop using unnecessarily gender-specific language in male-dominated fields. "Guys" is an interesting one because many people really do use it in a gender neutral sense. But for a significant number of speakers, the word does have a clear gender restriction. To these people, greeting a room with "Hey guys" sounds about the same as "Hey boys". You can imagine how this greeting would grate a little if you were not a man.

It is not really about people getting offended. The only people who really seem to get offended are the people who insist on using "guys" in spite of a polite request not to.

Language diversity tends to get overlooked quite easily. Remember that just because "guys" is gender neutral in your dialect doesn't necessarily mean that it has this feature for all English speakers across the world. You can't assume as much shared linguistic and cultural background in a programming language Slack channel as you can when you greet your friends at a bar.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#369

Post by foldr »

thijsvandien wrote: post #193
SrslyJosh wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't say the word "guys" in the Slack channel, or a bot will come and correct you, and tell you to say "folks" instead. Being asked to use inclusive language is a weird thing to complain about, especially as the very first example you give. > And from then on, you'll notice the core team all use the word "folks" incessantly in their writing, it's like some weird cult. I use "folks" and other non-gendered langu…

Perhaps it feels a little odd when one form of respect, addressing people properly, is strictly enforced when in a much broader sense, e.g. by not acknowledging (potential) contributors, it's so obviously lacking. Imagine holding a door with one hand while giving the finger with the other. What good is that?

It's still good to address people properly, regardless of how people's behavior might fall short in other respects.

Re: Why I’m Leaving Elm

#370

Post by popara »

rcxdude wrote: post #273
popara wrote: post #269

When I decided to commit my project to Elm, back in 2017, I have seen all those writings on the wall. Basically I am buying in someone's whim. One caveat is that I can stop following his whim, freeze source code that I need and carry on my development with out needing or caring about future releases, ie, I do the dreadful fork. I work alone so I choose my tech destiny. But when you look at the guy at which will you a…

> Luke is off and rude in this post at least. He is considered about the posture of OSS not the real benefits of it. Why Luke didn't came up with big blog post about the features he would like to see in Elm? Much more constructive than bitching about it. Sounds like he has done a lot of talking about features he would like to see (as well as work to realise them), and gotten nothing but dismissal and inaction for it.…

I would disagree with this, just on the basis that I have been following elm/compiler for a long time, and all the github discussions.

To me Luke, always went in with comments like a zealous OSS knight, which wants to make a contribution so hard.

If you list his blog posts and github comments you will see that there is no constructive critique of technology but rather their way of handling and communicating stuff.

I haven't run to that kind of issues, because I didn't insist do change compiler to suite my needs, but worked with what I already have.

Please, if you find a link to constuctive Luke's criticism, please post it, I am willing to change my mind.

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