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Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

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Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#131

Post by kanetw »

Robotbeat wrote: post #126
georgewsinger wrote: post #9

In case people are curious what it's like to work in VR, here's a demo of me using Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI I would argue that working in VR is fundamentally superior to working in PCs/laptops. It's basically 10x the screens, focus, and work immersion. Simula's text quality is also very good (getting around the eye fatigue present in older VR Desktops).

It’d be awesome if you could do this natively on the Quest (sideloaded). Native gesture control, inside-out tracking, wireless, almost twice the resolution, and wouldn’t even need to be connected to a PC at all so could be used anywhere (with Bluetooth keyboard and mouse). Have you thought about an Android/Quest version?

IIRC the Quest is too different, but our medium to long-term goal is to design a portable computer in HMD format, if that's feasible.

I'll take a look at Quest docs and see if it's doable, but I don't have high hopes for it.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#132

Post by tyrust »

ken wrote: post #129

There's something a little humorous about a new VR system whose primary feature is how well it can display VT100 emulators. I don't know anyone who used MS Windows when their software was all still MS-DOS programs. Windows really took off when programmers started writing programs designed to take advantage of the native GUI paradigm. Likewise, VR is never going to be accepted as a practical user interface until it mo…

Programmers work with text and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Terminal based editors are powerful, so properly displaying terminal is a great goal.

What would a non-rectangular UI for manipulating text look like?

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#134

Post by georgewsinger »

echelon wrote: post #108
carapace wrote: post #80

Been thinking about VR workspaces since sometime in the '80's. Broadly, they suck. It seems so cool but in practice VR adds pointless overhead to efficient UI. Windows with affine transformations suck at their one job . Very few people use Second Life as an IDE. The big win, as far as I can tell, would be to engage the user's spacial memory. (There is a small but non-zero niche for 3D visualization of complex systems…

They might suck right now, but this is a relatively nascent application of the technology. Wait until resolution improves and we break out of the "desktop" paradigm. We could have a collection of unlimited windows and tabs that exist in a continuum around us, and we could use gestures to organize and surface the contextually relevant ones. We won't need a bulky multi-monitor setup, and we could work remotely nearly a…

@echelon: This is exactly along the dimension we were thinking: VR as working environment for problem solving & creativity (via killer VR office apps that have yet to be invented). If you're curious, we have mapped out our long-term ideas in writing/deck format elsewhere. If you email me, I can send it over to you: george.w.singer [at] gmail.com.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#137

Post by georgewsinger »

ggreer wrote: post #78
kanetw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Navigation is one of the things we definitely need to improve upon. I think the wiggling is actually kind of natural -- you don't notice your head or eye movements when you do them automatically, but it might be exacerbated in VR. The fixing is an interesting idea, we'll try it out. I'm a bit worried it might feel weird in VR.

YouTube has support for VR videos. If you could record & render such that people with headsets could watch a session, that might help with interest and adoption. I think navigation needs eye tracking, which sadly no headset currently supports. Focus-follows-gaze would be a game changer.

Uploading a YouTube VR video of a work session is a potentially fantastic idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

Right now, Simula uses "dumb" eye tracking, in the sense that windows receive keyboard and cursor focus when the user's forward eye gaze intersects a window. We also have it so that users can control the cursor focus with their forward gaze (presently binded to `Super + Apostrophe`); similarly, users can drag windows around by holding `Super + Alt` and looking around. The experience adds up to something quite productive once you learn all the keyboard shortcuts (your fingers don't need to leave the keyboard).

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#138

Post by Reelin »

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #118
echelon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might suck right now, but this is a relatively nascent application of the technology. Wait until resolution improves and we break out of the "desktop" paradigm. We could have a collection of unlimited windows and tabs that exist in a continuum around us, and we could use gestures to organize and surface the contextually relevant ones. We won't need a bulky multi-monitor setup, and we could work remotely nearly a…

> Wait until resolution improves and we break out of the "desktop" paradigm. We could have a collection of unlimited windows and tabs that exist in a continuum around us, and we could use gestures to organize and surface the contextually relevant ones. You can get 90% there by just using multiple desktops IMHO, at least that's my experience.

This. I can't see moving my head and making gestures with my hands ever beating tiled windows and good keyboard shortcuts. I don't want a VR enabled workspace (ie I don't want my windows to move when my head moves), but I might prefer a sufficiently high resolution headset to multiple monitors if the software support was reasonably seamless.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#139

Post by georgewsinger »

techopoly wrote: post #41
skratlo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well looking at the video, I mean, I can have dozens workspaces with hundreds of windows (if I need to) and navigate them with moving just my fingers, whereas you are apparently breaking your neck to navigate more than 3 windows. I think what you're doing is cool and has to be done for the sake of exploration, but I would really, really focus on navigation. Also, how are you supposed to focus on text, when reading or…

Virtual Desktop already has many customizable features that allow you to work the way you're describing. I've worked in it before, and it was very immersive, though there was of course some fatigue. You can have just one window at a time, and with a good headset, the wiggle is not significant. You can even adjust it so that your workspace follows you when your head turns.

RE eyestrain: here are a couple of links showing off Simula's text quality:

https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/blob/gdwlroots-xwayland/d... https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/blob/gdwlroots-xwayland/d...

I haven't used Windows' Virtual Desktop since the early days, but I suspect our text enhancements have improved upon the situation dramatically (when keeping hardware constant).

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#140

Post by spaethnl »

tyrust wrote: post #132
ken wrote: post #129

There's something a little humorous about a new VR system whose primary feature is how well it can display VT100 emulators. I don't know anyone who used MS Windows when their software was all still MS-DOS programs. Windows really took off when programmers started writing programs designed to take advantage of the native GUI paradigm. Likewise, VR is never going to be accepted as a practical user interface until it mo…

Programmers work with text and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Terminal based editors are powerful, so properly displaying terminal is a great goal. What would a non-rectangular UI for manipulating text look like?

I'm not sure I agree with the parent, but to give an example for a non-rectangular UI for manipulating (programming) text: Combine structural editing[1] overlaid on some kind of 3d graph that shows how your entire codebase fits together.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnbVCNIh1NA

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